Yugoslavia or Somalia???.

F

Fred_Plowman

Well-known member
Remember I am unsure which it was when the Canadians were raked across the coals for torturing?? I think it was in Somalia maybe.. They showed pics of canadian troops Torturing prisoners. Remember that? I mean torturing.. Not making them naked and laughing at them.
I am not real surprised of this deal.. Stripping men naked is step # 1 in technique of interrogation. It is a step by step program that demoralizes them so that they break and talk moreso quickly..
I am blown away when they call that torture.. lol
I mean Iraqis are salt of the earth people.. They wouldnt ever beat or torture american captives would they??
Gosh wouldnt it be nice if they would have just stripped Americans naked and pointed and laughed at them. That way they would have something to laugh about when they were safe from any prankish harm.
Its such BS and the Socialist lil' Red doper diaper babies /electronic box people that delivered that garbage should be punished for undermining US interests abroad.
The pen is mightier than the sword sometimes.
 
Re: Yugoslavia or Somalia???.

Siiggh . . . I guess the genie's out of the bottle with these posts . . . :-/
 
Re: Yugoslavia or Somalia???.

Fred,

I've stayed out of the political threads here because I want to concentrate on camera stuff, but I'd like to address some of things you say.

<< I am not real surprised of this deal.. Stripping men naked is step # 1 in technique of interrogation. It is a step by step program that demoralizes them so that they break and talk moreso quickly..
I am blown away when they call that torture.. lol>>

You're right about the stripped naked thing. It's a very popular technique, but from what I've seen and heard this case goes beyond that with men forced to perform simulated sex acts and men being sodomized. This has a lot of impact in a Muslim culture and probably is almost as bad or worse than physical torture in their societies eyes.

<<I mean Iraqis are salt of the earth people.. They wouldnt ever beat or torture american captives would they??
Gosh wouldnt it be nice if they would have just stripped Americans naked and pointed and laughed at them. That way they would have something to laugh about when they were safe from any prankish harm.>>

This arguement doesn't work. Because if they go low, we go low? Sorry, I think the US should be above that otherwise what makes us different from Saddam.

<<Its such BS and the Socialist lil' Red doper diaper babies /electronic box people that delivered that garbage should be punished for undermining US interests abroad.>>

Those pictures are the truth. A sad truth but the truth. We should not hide from it and should learn from it. Would want to live in a country where the truth isn't heard. People disappear in the middle of the night, taken by government agents and are never heard of again. Oh wait, that was Iraq under Saddam. That's what you're asking for when you want people punished for exposing acts like this. It's great when you nail the bad guy, but when you get nailed for bad acts, it's blame the whistleblower.
I asked myself yesterday what would I do if I was a commander at that prison and somebody dropped the only pictures of these acts in my lap. Would I bury them and hide the truth, and maybe save US lives because if these photos get out it will just bring more down on the heads of ground troops in Iraq? Or would I release them, thus causing the firestorm we see now? It's a tough call. I'd probably hide them and try to conduct my own investigation because I'm pragmatist. Pragmatist can get you through day to day, but end the end I think we'd rather have a true leader who will tell the truth no matter how hard it is. I think the short term solution is to hide the truth, but in today's media driven world, the truth would get out. Sometimes you have to face your bad acts and learn not to repeat them.

<<The pen is mightier than the sword sometimes.>>
It's easier to destroy (with the sword) than to create (write a new chapter in history.)

Here's the thing that bugs me. These acts of torture are just stupid. You might was well put up recruiting posters for terrorist. Rush Limbaugh has been trying to defend these soldier, saying it's like frat hazing. That would be true if these prisoners were willing participants. They aren't. We could be be on the cusp of losing this war because of this. Rumsfeld says there's and worse images on the way. I hear there's video footage. I don't want to think about the outrage after that. The one thing that I haven't heard much about is the death count of Iraqis in US prisons was up to 14. What's up there?

I'm sorry about this whole situation. It makes my heart very sad. I love American, but we are not free of problems. I think we do more good than harm, but this is a case where we screwed up.

Scott
 
Re: Yugoslavia or Somalia???.

Yes. We screwed up big time. I, too, am saddened by it, because it's not what we're about as a nation.
 
Re: Yugoslavia or Somalia???.

I agree with the things you say Scott.. I was trying to love my country and do damage control. I was replying to a canadian fella who was calling it torture. I was reminding him of when pics were released fo canadian soldiers TORTURING people.
You are exactly right. In the Muslim culture making two naked men lay next to each other is not a good thing. I assume thats why they made them fellas do that.
The truth is coming out now that this was staged by Intel operatives for whatever reasons they may have to upset this whole thing.
I did not condone what they did I was just trying to put things in perspective. This was Hazing as Rush Limbo would say. This wasnt TORTURE.. My 2c
 
Re: Yugoslavia or Somalia???.

After thinking some more about this I have come to some conclusions 1. torture is outlawed by geneva conventions and civilized mans senseability.. 2. So how now do we deal with these people? Well.. As I mentioned above.. Humiliation is interrogation 101.
Yes this goes on within our military. Thing is we arent supposed to know about it. If we cant spank these folks then what can we do to extract info? They arent afraid to die. Im sure they spit in the face of the guards over there and say go ahead kill me.
What they do understand however is humiliation. They understand being made to lay naked next to another man or have dogs bark at them (my understanding is dogs are regarded like Swine). They understand the humiliation of being made naked and having a women pull them on a leash. Thats how different our cultures are. We would probably laugh at these things ( they were smiling in the pics having fun) To the Arabs it was Torture..
Mistreatment yes.. Torture no way. I wont go into torture techniques we can all use our imaginations on how some of these countries use torture to extract info.
Im sure the things that go on there arent pretty. And it is hard to condone these things but again sight unseen. These folks were probably following orders to extract information. Intel guys walk in and have methods that they have devised for their particular culture to enter their psychie.... While we sleep at night we need these folks to protect us. If making a man naked on a leash with barking dogs scaring him will derive information that may save American lives then why should you object.
These Senators that our objecting to this are undermining my safety, my military, my country, our reputation, etc.. etc..
If they think the Military can work with these thugs with a kinder gentler approach they are stupid. Wake up and smell the coffee folks. It always goes on it is just an issue because some Benedict Arnold made it an issue.
 
Re: Yugoslavia or Somalia???.

Fred,

You raise interesting questions. How do we extract information from prisoners? The nudity things is standard issue. It dehumanizes and creates a sense of insecurity. I don't love it, but it may be a viable form of interrogation.

The coupling of nude men is pushing it.

Where I really draw the line is sodomizine prisioners and torture them to death which appears to have happened. Ask yourself this question, would you like it if they did the same thing with US soldiers? I think not and the outrage from the US would be loud and long.

Scott
 
Re: Yugoslavia or Somalia???.

None of this is really a surprise; although I can't say I condone it nor am I stoked that it is out in the open.

The reality is is that this is WAR. Sad but true. Harsh, yes. But nothing new.
 
Re: Yugoslavia or Somalia???.

I think we agree that these things do go on and they are a part of the ugly reality of war. I heard rumors of the sodomy thing but no pics.. Maybe that was reserved for the bastard that screwed lil' Jessica Lynch in the ass I dont know...
What Im saying is they say all of "this and that" went on but none of the pics really showed murder or torture (that they showed us)..
I think it does happen, rough a guy up too much ..
I certainly dont want that to happen to Americans although we know that it does. I do honestly feel that some folks probably have died while undergoing interrogation.

The naked men lying together does seem like much. But were talking about Islam.. That is worse than killing them..
If it happened to me and you as soldiers we would laugh and drink a beer lamenting on it years from now if we made it out.

These folks again are not afraid to die. No problem for them. They are afraid however of lying naked next to another man.

The Brits i hear will sew their dead enemies in pig skin. The Iraqis know this and avoid death because they cant enter heaven where the virgins await them to come rape them if they are wrapped in the skin of a pig. Its called Psyops....
Were hitting them where it hurts without really torturing them..
Its the alternative to barbarism .. That is what they practice!
It is certainly bad publicity though that has a counter effect on our efforts...
 
Re: Yugoslavia or Somalia???.

Fred,

I didn't get to address this in my other message because I step away from the computer. This phrase bugs me in your post:

"It always goes on it is just an issue because some Benedict Arnold made it an issue."

I don't like you calling the man who released this photos a traitor. If you saw something you saw was wrong and your reported it and felt nothing was being done by the higher ups, what would you do?

I know that war is ugly and ugly things happen, but I hope they happen when you're under fire and have little time to think. Not when you're standing over a helpless, naked man and you sodomize him with a baton. Were all these prisoners treated this way? No, but how many would it take before your reported it? 1, 2, 10...?

"Evil will triumph when good men do nothing."


Scott
 
Re: Yugoslavia or Somalia???.

Scott,
Have you seen the latest news?? They caught a US civilian and beheaded him in retaliation to treatment of prisoners.
So my question to you is. Is this man that promoted these pics and distributed them some what liable for this mans death?? I think if no one said nothing about nothing we could continue to extract IMPORTANT info and our people would still not be harmed or at least not retaliated against.
i guess now that the watchdogs are onto us at our prisons the only way we will have to deal with prisoners is to tickle them or have a pillow fight until they become our friends and tell us what we want to know cause they like us. Maybe instead of their normal diet of rats and rice we can cut their 3 meals a day back to one or something. Oh well that would be inhumane. I wonder if we could keep them from showering that might be a punishment or a tool to extract info especially since they must shower everyday..lol. Im being silly but really now that this fella has brought this to the table how will we now deal with information extraction from prisoners. We cant torture.. not that we would want or need too.. but we cant haze either.. I think the fact that this hazing is compared to torture is my problem I have with it and now the reperrcussion of the person that released this info ar coming to fruition.
 
Re: Yugoslavia or Somalia???.

I think it's pretty obvious that the "retaliation" was a mere pretext; they just wanted to execute an American.

Fred, I agree that there are genuine interrogation concerns, but it's equally obvious that the stunts pulled by the soldiers in these photos weren't part of that.  For example, check out all of the soldiers wearing watches . . . interrogation "101" dictates that you deprive the interrogatee of a sense of time.  Interrogators never wear timepieces.  Also, basic interrogation technique dictates isolation; that's hardly the case here.

These people were out of hand.  I can't say as I can muster up a whole lot of sypmpathy for "victims" who were very likely murderers, robbers, terrorists, and worse.  But I do care about the standard to which we should hold ourselves accountable.
 
Re: Yugoslavia or Somalia???.

And I do as well. Im concerned with the fact it was given out to the Media though.. This hit brass before it did media.. Brass was taking care of the situation Im sure..
 
Re: Yugoslavia or Somalia???.

All this talk about the Geneva Conventions makes me sick, when have our troops ever been accorded the courtesies of the Geneva Conventions? Korea? Vietnam? Somalia? Iraq? Anywhere? When crippled jessica Lynch was being raped by Fedayeen thugs where were her Geneva rights? the truth is Amercan troops have never been protected by these conventions, they have been tortured and mistreated by just about every combatant we have faced in the last half-century, meanwhile we have been hindered from aquiring intelligence that could save American lives through time-tested techniques. Now I'm against direct violence, beatings, dogs, electricity anything that could actually kill or physically scar the prisoner, but that leaves a whole gamut of psychological methods including humiliation, sleep deprivation, etc. If these troops went over the line I'm drawing then let the ax fall, but most of what I've seen does not bother me at all, this is WAR.
 
Re: Yugoslavia or Somalia???.

Fred,

"They caught a US civilian and beheaded him in retaliation to treatment of prisoners."

First let me say, I understand your outrage. I would hunt down these animals and cut them into little pieces, but that lowers me to their level. Who are "they"? Are they the Iraqi people or some sick fringe players? They're sick fringe players who would probably kill US soldiers or citizens anyway.

"So my question to you is. Is this man that promoted these pics and distributed them some what liable for this mans death?? I think if no one said nothing about nothing we could continue to extract IMPORTANT info and our people would still not be harmed or at least not retaliated against. "

No he is not liable. If there were no bad acts happening, then there would be no pictures. As to extracting IMPORTANT info, 90% of the detainees are guys who were swept up in nearly random arrests. Does "some guy on the street" deserve to be tortured? Now I understand that there some "bad guys" in the detainees, but how do we seperate who's who?
Regarding saying nothing, did you read my quote at the end of my message? We cannot turn our heads away from acts that are wrong. Torture (I mean sodomizing and brutal beatings, some causing death) is wrong. Ask John McCain, who spent many years in a North Vietnam prison being tortured?

Here's my question about those pictures, what the hell were they thinking? You're making a record of questionable acts and you allow yourself to be photographed, smiling as you torture and humiliate human beings. It's like some high school kids video taping themselves blowing up mailboxes and the next thing you know the tape falls into the wrong hands and bam!, the kids are busted.

Scott
 
Re: Yugoslavia or Somalia???.

If the level of sophistication and immediacy that we now have in 'the media' existed as far back as WWI, then who knows what kinds of things would have or could have been documented.

It seems that since we now have this immediacy, etc. in the media we expect to see reporters standing on the border of some country or city shoving a mic in the face of marines as they cross over.

It's so easy to play an armchair quarterback in this war and make your judgements by the updated minute.

Scott, you don't know any more about the situation surrounding those photos than anyone else. But, you seem to want to enlighten us to your liberal leanings.

Fair enough.

Just know that despite your numerous posts to this thread that your opinion is in the minority on this board.

The more liberal whining I hear only serves to further polarize my viewpoint.

As has been pointed out many times in this thread... This is WAR.

This is NOT a perfect world so my patience runs short when I hear idealistic dreamers lamenting on why it has to be.

BTW, just what is your solution to evil terrorists on this Earth whose deathwish for Americans is stronger than their own will to live?
 
Re: Yugoslavia or Somalia???.

I've been thinking about all this between bouts of movie-making.

Obviously, this is unacceptable US troop behaviour. Is it an atrocity? No.

I keep thinking about the whole pictures thing. 'What were they thinking?' Gosh, its almost as if this is a message to aspiring 13-29 year-old Wahabbi wannabes that American *women* soldiers will humiliate you in prison if you get caught. Frankly, the setup stinks. It has CIA psyops written all over it. Can you think of a better way to discourage potentual young muslim male recruits than to get pictures like these out on the street?

I doubt this 'message' was meant for the American public, because look at the backlash.

Now, I could have been watch Black Hawk Down one too many times, and these prison guards could just be sadistic assholes. Certainly this is a news item with legs, and it has done a lot of PR damage. But I frankly don't care what the Arab street thinks, because we can't win that popularity contest no matter what we do.
 
Re: Yugoslavia or Somalia???.

Terry,

Thanks for your comments.

"Scott, you don't know any more about the situation surrounding those photos than anyone else. But, you seem to want to enlighten us to your liberal leanings."

I am entitled to my opinion and so are you. I have yet to hear anybody, except maybe Rush Limbaugh, say they think what's going on in these photos are a good thing. The truth is people were tortured. I've made comments that I thought some of the conditions were necessary, but I don't think sodomy and brutal beatings are the type of things the US wants done by it's people or to it's people. During WWII, near the end, new, young German soldiers were told by their fathers to surrender to US soldiers because they could expect to get humane treatment. This is a political disaster.

"Just know that despite your numerous posts to this thread that your opinion is in the minority on this board."

And what is your point? Should I shut up because I'm in the minority and you don't agree with me? Well, I'm not going to be quiet.

"The more liberal whining I hear only serves to further polarize my viewpoint. "

Good for you and your open mind. I never said anybody was a necon war monger, but you can charactize my comments anyway you see fit. People seem to see desent against the war as we're against the troops and that cannot be further from the truth in my case. I love America and think it is the greatest country in the world. We do so many good things and we do bad things. This is a case where we have failed to do good. This country gives more aid to other countries than anybody. That's great and makes me proud.

I'll close by saying last night I attended a baseball game (Padres vs. Reds in San Diego and my Reds triumphed) I stood and sang the National Anthem. Everytime I do this I get teary eyed. I know it sounds sappy, but I do. On my way to my seat, a young man saw my Reds cap and said, "Hey". He was from Northern Kentucky, near Cincinnati. He's in the military. I shook his hand and thanked him. My point is I love America and I want us to do good in the world and anybody who thinks because I speak out against our mistakes thinks I don't love this country is wrong. Young men and women have died for our rights and one of them being freedom of speech, yours and mine.

Scott
 
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