Your input wanted on new Flo design. Onboard or Remote dimming?

MattinSTL

MattinSTL

Sound Modulator
Hey guys... as a couple of you know I've been working on a few flo designs that I plan to sell before too long. I'd really like to get some opinions on several things... for starters let's hear what you guys think about this dimming issue. Onboard or Remote? Remote means with a wire... just like Kino offers as an option.

The advantages of onboard are all-together, one-unit convenience with nothing to keep track of. If you got the light you got the dimmer... no matter what.

The advantage of remote dimming is you can set up your lights and then get behind your camera and just dial everything in while you watch the LCD or a monitor. To me this beats setting each light individually and continuously checking the camera/monitor... also as you dial each light up/down it changes the lighting relationships between the subject and lights... so you can see the advantage of being able to control 3 different lights from the camera's POV.

The second "poll question" is rotary dimmer or addressable dimmer?

The advantage of a rotary dimmer is the fun of twirling a knob... tuning in Tokyo I guess?

The advantage of an addressable potentiometer is that you can set dimming levels by address and easily return to those EXACT levels... plus you can dim each fixture in increments of 1000's, 100's, and 10th's... so you get a fast level setting of 10 steps and then 10 steps within that and 10 steps within that... so you get precision and exact lamp drive loads. Can you guess which way I plan to dim? But this is about YOU, not me... please give your opinion on this also.

So it's two questions:

1. Onboard or Remote dimming.

2. Rotary or Addressable dimmer.
 
As explained to me by several sales folks at NAB, in order to keep prices down a lot of the newer fluro offerings don't even include a dimming option. Their advice was just to back the fixture up which may or may not work depending your location. That being said, my vote would be for a rotary dimmer option, but only if it doesn't increase the overall pricing substantially. I would rather deal with a light that's too bright and is "very" affordable, than dealing with one that's going to cost me out the yin-yang that has a dimming option. But it is a fine line indeed.

Oh, and just an observation. It seems that a lot of the newer offerings are foregoing any type of barn-door and are sticking with a grid that directs the light, like the Kino Parabeam.

Forgot about the remote vs. on-board. My 2 cents is that remote option would be better.

-Tim
 
I've played with a ParaBeam and the color temp may change a bit... especially if you go from one extreme of the dimming range to the other... but it's not a big deal for normal ranges. I always suggest that people do a manual white balance on ANYTHING critical anyway.

Tim, you are correct in your asessment of the dimming cost factor. Dimming flos is a big deal... it's less then half the cost to simply offer switchable lamps. I'm working on three levels of lighting... going from dirt cheap with 1 biax tube, then an independently switchable model with 2 biax tubes, and finally up to the remote dimming model with 2 biax tubes. I've got several other ideas in the works... but those 3 are what I'm trying to get together right now. If you play with a dimming flo you'll want a dimming flo. Switchable is a step in the right direction... but it 'aint dimming. As most people agree... price is a factor. That's why I want to offer something for everyone.

The ParaBeam is made to work with optional barndoors BTW... from my own experience and everything I read the hardest thing about flos is controlling the spill. Even guys with Divas wish for bigger barndoors! It would be nice if the grid would do it... and it may have to on my economy model.

The biggest challenges for me in getting these things done has been price (obviously)... strength to weight ratio... and integrating lighting control. For something so simple barndoors sure throw a wrench in the works. There are a lot of manufacturing issues to consider. Size, construction, what holds 'em in position, etc. etc.

I'm curious why you prefer a rotary dimmer? I had another guy that I know that also said he prefers the rotary... I thought it would be a landslide in favor of the push dimmer? Does the push sound complicated or time-consuming? In practice it takes just a few seconds to choose a level with either one... I can still go with rotary in my final editions... but I'm tempted to show people the convenience and precision of addressable dimming first. Just for one aspect imagine returning to a shoot and just glancing at your notes to see the 3 numbers you had the lights at... or if you do several interviews (as I've done for a documentary) all over the country you can always set your light kit up the same way... After the first setup you just leave all the control boxes set at those numbers... or just write down the setting for key and fill... and Bam! Done. Still think rotary is better? Why?
 
Hey Matt,

I guess my concern over the electronic method is two-fold; one being that with the controls being "electronic" they have a greater opportunity to fail over time and with harsh use, and second being that I'm accustomed to using only rotary dimmers. You make an excellent argument for potentiometers and I'm sure on a great product it probably won't matter which method is employed.

I guess my opinion concerning on-board versus remote ballast is probably also rooted in the inevitability that all electronic devices fail before I'm ready for them to. It makes more sense for me as a consumer to be able to purchase a replacement ballast if one failed as opposed to purchasing a new fixture. But in the end I guess it all depends on how much it costs to create said fixture or ballast.

I think your idea of different fixtures at different price levels is a GREAT one. Keep up the great work! I'm sure you'll have plenty of customers for your fixtures.

Of all the ParaBeams I've seen, I've never seen any with barn doors. But like you said, they probably aren't big enough anyway.

-Tim
 
Well the good news is that the addressable pot is still analog... so it really is just a choice of interface. Also nobody can accidentally knock your setting off... and I'm even doing these dimmer circuits by phase... so the electronic ballast's frequency (in the 40Ks) actually goes UP with dimming.

It's funny... with all the tech going into these things what's taken the most time is trying to design a simple, functional, and versatile "shell"... I'm building most of the light in factory quantities so I've wittled the costs down as far as I possible... The only cost variable left is in the materials, labor, and construction methods of the shell. To put it simply, I want these lights to be attractive AND functional... but I can't spend $100 per shell to make that happen (on the cheapest model anyway)... so it requires coming up with a simple design that can be constructed within the parameters of my available tools (with an outside shop doing the TIG work). I originally wanted to do extruded aluminum shells... a custom die demands a minimum order of 1,000 POUNDS of material. Ouch! $6,000 worth of shells is a pretty big bet... maybe later...

It's been tough committing to ONE design... so my initial offerings will go in batches of 20 lights... and each new 20 may change slightly... 'cause after you put 20 of anything together and do some testing... you're bound to change your mind somewhere.
 
Forget the dimmers, I hope you have the liability insurance necessary to sell a product. If not, you could find yourself in a heap of trouble if something goes wrong with one.
 
Walter... you're right... we live in a world full of idiots. I'll check that out.

Maybe I can put a tag on the powercord with the international "NO" symbol circling a guy in the shower with one of my lights.

Considering I've got together enough parts to sell a moving truck full of these I can guarantee that they will be selling... one way or the other... even as a kit if it comes down to that... which I doubt it will. There isn't anybody on this forum who will go to more trouble to be sure that everthing's done right. I'd worry way more about somebody else putting one of these together.

I may hold off for a while on the dimming models anyway... they'll have to cost significantly more then a switchable light.
 
MattinSTL

I would like to see an onboard dimmer and barndoors are critical. Any plans for reflective material to spread the light?
 
John, I'm in the process of testing dimmers now. I spec'ed them for the push-pot as I previously described. Well the story so far is "more tweaking". The dimmers work well, but they don't follow a steady progression from high to low... The dimming steps get larger at lower numbers which makes the dimming seem minimal at the higher settings. I wouldn't want somebody to think that the dimming range is more limited then it really is. Right now addresses between 999 and 699 are minimally perceptable... and the steps get noticeable from about 599-499... and then the shifts in brightness are big between 460 and 360. Settings below 350 turn the lamps off. If you look up the ParaBeam specs you'll see that the DMX control doesn't see numbers above 500ish... and this is the same type of push-pot.

I may just go to a rotary dimmer afterall. Maybe that's why nobody uses a push-pot dimmer?

If I do a "high-end" fixture (that dims) I think I'll do it with an onboard dimmer that slides out... so it appears like a permanently mounted dimmer, but will slide out to show 20' of line.

Right now my highest priority is on the cheapest fixture... and I don't plan to design the small fixture for a broad spread. In 99% of my interview situations the spill was the problem... not the desired light. What I always wished for was more control of the direction of flo light... so I'm designing the small fixtures to do the job a small fixture is best at... I should have pics and video to show you guys within a couple weeks tops.

Right now the ONLY reason I don't have a finished product to show you is because of the other companies that I'm waiting on... to do what they said they'd do by now.
 
MattinSTL said:
Walter... you're right... we live in a world full of idiots. I'll check that out.
Click to expand...

I only mention it because I was working on some fixtures recently and stopped once I found out what I had to do to make sure the liability issues were a factor. Basically if your fixtures are not made to certain specs and code and are not proven to be 120% safe, then you can and will be held liable of anyone that uses them is injured or killed.
 
If you really want to help me out... and I know you do (wink-wink)... then why don't you tell me what deterred you specifically?

I had Mole Richardson Tweenie II's and those are supposed to be some pretty high-end fresnels... well for anybody who's never played with a light like that (my target customer for the cheapest model) they will be shocked at what they're paying all the money for. Those things are aluminum cans where the 3 wires (black, white, green) just go to their respective terminals and ground there's NOTHING to it as far as the electricity is concerned. Ever open a household fluorescent fixture? I'm talking about the standard white boxes that you see on display in Home Depot or Lowe's... all they are is a metal box with a ballast and wires. That's it, nothing else.

Obviously someplace like Lowe's maintains liability insurance... but I'd be amazed if that insurance even COVERS stuff like that. You can buy any one of a THOUSAND items at Lowe's that could EASILY... I mean EASILY cut and kill you. How can they possibly sell ladders, saws, drills, TORCHES... I could go ON and ON. Lowe's sells more "weapons" then any gun or knife superstore.

Today my girlfriend is going to talk to some high-powered attorneys about this... these guys are some of the best (at least in Saint Louis)... we're talking guys that get multi-million dollar settlements... not the type that do DWI cases... so what they say will be final on the issue. I'm also going to look into all the certifications and liability issues that you raised... I understand that you are making a valid point.

Either way I'm as committed as I can be to it now... some of the little parts going into these things had 500 piece minimums... that's a lot of lights. So like I said... even if it had to be a "kit"... which by kit I mean that I'd supply something that a guy could put together in 5 minutes or less... I'd do it that way... but to reiterate my previous statement... I'd feel more confident in my own final inspection of each unit.

Anything complex (such as the dimming) is being FULLY inspected (and mostly developed) by engineers... I hired a company that specializes in ballast electronics to help develop the dimming system I wanted. The gist is that I found a way to save close to $200 on that component... but my manufacturing costs for the rest of the light are higher then Kino Flo because I'm using better materials and I'm also having fabrication done in batches of 20 with a hundred unit commitment (per light design)... whereas Kino may stock hundreds of each light they sell. In the end I should be able to produce something approaching a Diva 200 (in function) and sell it for under $399. That was my original goal and that's what I'm still planning on. The selling price MAY even be lower then that. The dimming flo is by far the most complicated... so it's taking the longest to get to fruition.
 
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