Will you switch

[Gopher_Greene]

I was just wondering for those considering making the jump to an HVX what MLE you'll switch to if any?

 

[Norm Sanders]

I was just wondering for those considering making the jump to an HVX what MLE you'll switch to if any?

I don't think I'll EVER work with a MLE, whatever that is. As far as NLE's go, I can't imagine that Sony's not going to have Vegas up to par ASAP. They'd be shooting themselves in the foot if they don't, and they've got too much dough wrapped up in it not to do a simple upgrade/patch.

Besides, to effectively work with the HVX in post, most people will have to do some serious computer upgrades as well. Sure, if I had all the dough in the world to blow I'd probably go Mac/FCP, but then I'd have a massive learning curve, and would't be able to initially put out the stuff that I can currently do in Vegas.

 

[Barry_Green]

If Sony doesn't provide support, HVX users will have no choice but to switch platforms.

I'm hoping that Sony Media Software will make an announcement soon. I know companies don't typically announce new features, but they're in a unique situation here -- if they don't announce support, HVX buyers are left with no choice but to switch. Whereas if they just make an announcement as to a) that they intend to offer full integrated support, and b) when that will be available, then that could help a lot of us to decide whether we can afford to wait.

Marcus at DVFilm has provided a workaround, but unless you've got a dual-core hyperthreaded dual-processor fire-breathing Cray II that you're running Vegas on, I don't think it'll be a satisfactory workaround for professional use -- the Avid codec in Vegas, through Quicktime, is just too slow. It might, however, be satisfatory to use until the real support comes out, if we can only get a statement that such real support is actively coming.

 

[Filmjunkie677]

I don't have to worry about this since I'm sticking with my trusty DVX for a long, long, while.....

 

[pmark23]

If Sony doesn't provide support, HVX users will have no choice but to switch platforms.

Why is this? As far as I understood, you've already editing HVX footage under Vegas.

All that's needed is the DVCPROHD codec, and there's nothing stopping anyone from writing one (personally I think it's Panasonic's responsibility -- it's their codec.)

The only other thing that would be missing is in-Vegas capturing (which isn't done in Vegas anyway), and real-time HD preview over 1394/USB (which I don't think would work very well anyway given the amount of rendering per frame). You would still be able to preview at SD resolutions -- which would be better for editing.

Am I missing something? :huh:


Sony knows that not having HVX support will not hinder the sales of HVXs, but that it WILL hinder the sales of Vegas. And also they sell a lot more copies of Vegas than HDV cameras. And the profit margin on Vegas is much higher. In short they have nothing to lose by supporting the HVX (but a bit of pride, I guess.)

 

[Norm Sanders]

I can't imagine pride's an issue, since Vegas has been preached for a while as the perfect NLE for the DVX ... fitting it like a glove with its native 24P editing/capture, etc.

 

[Barry_Green]

Why is this? As far as I understood, you've already editing HVX footage under Vegas.

I wouldn't call what I'm doing "editing". It's painful and woefully impractical. There is no way that I would call what I'm currently doing with Vegas/DV100 "usable". Not by any stretch.

All that's needed is the DVCPROHD codec

No, that's completely untrue. In fact, what we already have is a DVCPRO-HD codec (the one from Avid). It's nowhere near enough.

First and foremost, they have to write MXF support so that Vegas will recognize the files that the HVX writes. Currently there's no support at all (they only support Sony MXF, which is of course a totally proprietary system not used by anyone else...) Without MXF support, it'll always be a cheesy "workaround" situation. And there's good reason for them to implement it -- all their competitors already support it (excepting only Premiere Pro), and it's not like it's a Panasonic-only thing; Ikegami uses MXF in its EditCam, Thomson/Grass Valley uses MXF in its Infinity, and MXF (proper Op-Atom MXF) is a SMPTE-codified standard.

So the biggest thing they have to do is put in proper MXF support.

The next thing is to get a codec. A proper codec, that runs in DirectShow. A fast codec. Right now you can install the Avid codec, but it's painfully slow, and it only works in Quicktime format -- and Vegas performs quite poorly in Quicktime mode, as vs. DirectShow/AVI mode. And besides it's sort of bugged -- Vegas, using the Avid codec, always sees files as 1920x1080, when they're never 1920x1080. It's weird, and I don't know how to get it to work right. Vegas needs a properly-integrated fast codec, one that works comparably to other systems. When you can have a half-dozen streams of DV100 playing real-time on a Mac laptop, there's no acceptable reason why a 3.0ghz hyperthreaded P4 should poke along at 3 frames per second, yet that's what we currently get.

However, the codec thing may be under control -- there are rumors that MainConcept is working on one, and there are at least two other companies who may be doing the same.

Finally, it needs a video capture/print-to-tape application. This is less vital than the other two components, but it still needs to be done. If you want to output a project to tape on the AJ-HD1200A deck, you need a print-to-tape system. If you want to work on Varicam-originated footage, you need a video capture app.

It needs all three components, or it is not a usable, integrated application.

So either they give us the whole package, or we have to switch. Other applications just work. Other apps let you edit multiple streams of full-frame-rate, full-res, full-screen DV100. Other apps let you plug the P2 card in and edit the files directly off it. Other apps let you do a live streaming capture right from the camera. Other apps let you work with DV100 as easily as you can currently work with DV.

I expect no less from Vegas. Vegas got its popularity specifically because there were no goofy, half-implemented workarounds. It did things *right*, right from the outset. The "workarounds" we currently have to try to use are, frankly, absurd. Proper support is the only acceptable route.

 

[scharky]

Well, here is the thing for me. I have no ability to upgrade to an HVX at this point in my life, and when I do, maybe a year or so down the road, I expect Vegas will have caught up. There is absolutly no way that it wont have at that point in time. At least that is what I am hoping.

 

[Dahopafilms]

If Sony doesn't provide support, HVX users will have no choice but to switch platforms ...

I agree - but I really think both Sony and Panasonic would be leaving money on the table if they can't work out their "differences". I would clearly prefer to stick with Vegas - a great program with great features. But when my HVX arrives, I will have no other choice than to switch to another NLE - unless Panny and Sony both suck it up and kiss and make up.

The point is that it would make more economic sense for me to pay for a $200 or $300 "upgrade" or add-on or what-have-you in order to stay with the PC-based Vegas rather than going to, for example, an Apple platform. Multiply that upgrade fee by the number of Vegas users, and that's a lot of money for licences and codecs and whatever - presumably split between Panny and Sony. There's also consumer confidence and goodwill (and future upgrades) to consider.

If they don't offer that option, guess what - we ALL lose. And I'll have my Vegas 6.0 off my system faster than you can spell HD.

 

[Barry_Green]

The point is that it would make more economic sense for me to pay for a $200 or $300 "upgrade" or add-on or what-have-you in order to stay with the PC-based Vegas rather than going to, for example, an Apple platform. Multiply that upgrade fee by the number of Vegas users, and that's a lot of money for licences and codecs and whatever

I totally agree. I mean, yes, it'd be inconvenient to cough up some change for an upgrade, but compared to the costs of buying a new NLE, plus associated hardware upgrades, plus the dozens of hours to learn & become proficient in a new NLE?

It's pennies. Hopefully Vegas will implement full support. They have to... :thumbsup:

 

[pastywhiteboy]

If they do end up releasing support, it should be either ready or announced when the HVX officially ships, right? I don't know why they would do it before then... well, exept that people are already switching NLE's as we speak!

-pasty

 

[GenJerDan]

It's pennies. Hopefully Vegas will implement full support. They have to... :thumbsup:

Nah...it's just if they don't, they might as well just bundle Vegas with Sony cameras and be done with it.

 

[Gopher_Greene]

MLE is the mother ******* linear editing system or it was just a typo. I just think Sony is losing customer base as I am typing. As more and more users get serious about the purchase of an HVX and evaluate what it'll take to edit, they make decisions based on what the vendors are providing and stating in press releases. So far I've heard nothing from Sony or sonic foundry that indicates their intention. If they don't want to support their competitors equipment, that’s their prerogative. Personally I like Vegas and would prefer to stay, but the day my HVX arrives is their deadline. I can’t go through a work stoppage or afford to outsource the editing. Therefore I’d move to Avid and part ways with Vegas.

 

[Barry_Green]

Nah...it's just if they don't, they might as well just bundle Vegas with Sony cameras and be done with it.

http://www.rebate-zone.com/ConfirmRebate.asp?function=submit&method=open&current=true&pid=6792

 

[David Jimerson]

Link doesn't work.

 

[Jim Arthurs]

Everyone's situation is unique... I've got two NLE's... both PC based. I don't want to add a Mac into my workflow if possible, as I've got a PC renderfarm going and the Mac would be isolated and rather single purpose.

Vegas is my software only NLE I purchased when they implemented DVX support faster than any other vendor. My second NLE is a Leitch VelocityHD, two fire-breathing real-time streams of full raster HD compressed or uncompressed.

Now with VelocityHD they have DVCPro50 P2 support right now (don't have any raw P2 clips to test, but it should work). They will have DVCPro100 support down the road, maybe six months. Until then I can always digitize in via the HVX's analog component inputs, or software convert up. Painful, but a short term possibility until they get DVCPro100 support going.

Vegas... we'll, that's an easier ship to jump if need be. If they don't announce support then it's bye-bye Vegas. I use Vegas for editing image sequences, but their image sequence support isn't the best, I suspect Premiere's better in this area.

I do want to point out that Barry's description of editing in Vegas leaves out another valid option... using DV Filmmaker to convert to the Cineform AVI codec. Yes, this is a workaround, but would allow you to use Vegas immediately and have real-time editing/playback. The Cineform intermediate codec is very high quality and is the preferred method of editing HDV in Vegas right now, so it's no stretch to consider using it for DVCPRO as well.

http://www.dvfilm.com/hvx200/index.htm (read near the bottom for details, will require a Cineform upgrade to ConnectHD)

Of course we want full and complete P2 support, and I will quickly jump ship if Sony doesn't hear our call. I understand and agree with Barry fully here. But, the Cineform route is possible, and no more trouble (though slower) than converting to QT's for those die-hard Vegas users who will want to work with the HVX today. A hack at best, but if we're going to mention any hacks, might as well go the full nine yards and describe them all, since this one will give you realtime playback.

Regards,

Jim Arthurs

 

[Barry_Green]

Link doesn't work.

Rats. Okay, that's what I get for tryin' to be a smart-aleck. I'll go back and put it in context now:

Nah...it's just if they don't, they might as well just bundle Vegas with Sony cameras and be done with it.

They do (sort of). The link I posted is to show that Sony has a promotion where if you buy their M10U HDV deck, they give you a free copy of Vegas 6!

 

[Slimothy]

I'm w/ Scharky. I won't be able to upgrade for about a year and if Sony doesn't have it figured out by then, then I'll switch. I think they'll be fear-lossed into fixing this pretty quickly. I hope anyways.

 

[GenJerDan]

They do (sort of). The link I posted is to show that Sony has a promotion where if you buy their M10U HDV deck, they give you a free copy of Vegas 6!

So...question: can the HVX downconvert while it's saving the "real" stuff -or- can the downconversion be done easily afterward?

And then we treat it as if it were film with a DI, and just send the HD footage off to someone with the EDL?

 

[Barry_Green]

So...question: can the HVX downconvert while it's saving the "real" stuff -or- can the downconversion be done easily afterward?

It cannot downconvert during live capture (unless you want to record the s-video output, I guess). Downconverting after capture is easy enough, just by going into "dub mode"; it runs at realtime.

And then we treat it as if it were film with a DI, and just send the HD footage off to someone with the EDL?

Wouldn't even bother. Just cut it at real resolution. I mean, presuming that Vegas implements the real stuff. Having seen what's possible on a low-end powerbook, I wouldn't even bother with downconverting or online/offline at all. Just cut the good stuff first.