Will you make crap work if that's what they want?

M

mrWr0ng

Well-known member
I'm sort of stuck on a video right now for a non-profit I work for. They've been really great for me in that just over a year ago, fresh out of college, they picked me up as an intern to do video production - other people bailed, I stayed, and they turned me into a contract employee with a good salary and no scheduled working hours.

The big change in our relationship came when they asked me to do a short promotional video for them to premiere during their gala dinner (they were giving an award to george lucas and wanted to be "with it" by having their own video). They gave me a week to do it, and I busted my hump putting together music, special fx, photos, and directed the CEO while she read a script, then a quick high-energy ending, and everyone went nuts for it. Everyone was thrilled, and shortly after I was promoted to salary and given several other projects.

Now the problem hits. They asked me to do another promotional video for their sister non-profit, a philanthropy forum. I agreed, anxious to get to work on it, and they handed me a script to make. It was terrible. I argued and fought about it, and the CEO listened and agreed with me, we trimmed it to a few pages and went to film it. This time, however, the CEO refused to let me direct and did it herself - it turned out terrible and I couldn't use more than a sentence at a time without having to cut.

I got so frustrated with it that I was ready to give up when my girlfriend said I should start over and do a version according to our own vision. We went in with an act structure, looking at how it would be marketed, to whom, and how to raise tension and keep it up. We went through 3 years of video and transcripts, finding great quotes with strong delivery and performance, and put together a video that really made me proud, that I felt had integrity and credibility for what the cause was. I was especially proud of our partnership and hard work on the video, and what we did together.

The non-profit loved the production quality of the video, but didn't like the message of the cause, and have since been having me one-by-one replace all the clips of speakers with powerful delivery, who all fit together to create an overarching message of the whole video, with clips of their personal friends with terrible delivery, meandering sentences, who just happen to have name recognition.

The integrity and credibility of the message has been completely destroyed, the quality of the production has gone down the crapper, and the video is now too long, boring, and it pains me to even work on it. All of the excitement I had, like with the original video, has been replaced with frustration and unhappiness in working on a product I despise, which has so much potential to be better.

So, I inquire to you, fellow artists, video production types, will you continue to pour your energy into something that you KNOW sucks? I've worked on short films with terrible scripts, and put my best in to do the best job I could, even when I disagree with almost every shot and wince at the acting, but I've put in almost 4 months on this video, and I'm at the point where I just want to say "NO. STOP. I will not make this crap, I'm here to do good work, to make a good product, and if you want crap, then you'll have to find someone else to make it for you."

I have another meeting with the CEO at some point next week where she's going to give me another round of changes, more good clips to delete, and more crap to shove in. What would you do?
 
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They pay you. You do what they want.

If you think it's worth quitting over, then quit, but frankly, it sounds like a silly thing to throw your job and good relationships away over.
 
They may pay me, but at the end of the day, what good is it going to do for my career if all I have is a bunch of crap on my demo reel? They may pay me some bucks right now, but it's not going to do me any good in the future if there's nothing I can ever show from it without actually hurting my chances at getting a better gig.
 
Exactly what David said. In this industry, you'll work with hundreds if clients that want to do it "how they want to do it", even if it's wrong. You'll get producers that have no idea what they're doing when it come's to video, but insist on some of the most insane idea's, even if they're technically incorrect and don't work. They still want them, and they're paying you to do it, so you do it, or you quit... but it's just going to happen again in your next job, unless you start your own company and do things your way (which probably won't work without doing at least a few jobs you don't want to).

EDIT: then don't put it on your reel... and you'll still learn from it.

A friend of mine at a major production house was editing a small spot with the client and producer litteraly looking over his shoulder in the edit room. The producer had a "great" idea that for just one small sequence in the slot, they wanted to change a clip from 24 fps, to 35fps "just to be a little different". The client loved it, and they insisted it be done. Of course the editor said that wasn't possible, and the client pushed to the point of threatening to take thier business to another post house. Eventually they gave in and listened to reason, but that's how rediculous some of the clients can be.
 
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Then don't use it for your reel, slap it together (with the same enthusiasm they are showing), and be done with it.
 
mrWr0ng said:
They may pay me, but at the end of the day, what good is it going to do for my career if all I have is a bunch of crap on my demo reel? They may pay me some bucks right now, but it's not going to do me any good in the future if there's nothing I can ever show from it without actually hurting my chances at getting a better gig.
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I normally don't respond like this, but . . . waaaah. Welcome to the working world. YOUR reel isn't THEIR problem. They don't pay you do things which advance your career; they pay you to do what they want done. If they disagree with you, it's their project, not yours, so they get what they want.
 
If I thought about the number of shows where I've been asked to implement stupid, pointless, inartistic, implausible, inaccurate, ugly, foolish, embarrassing, nonsensical crap, well, I'd get depressed.

Everyone above is right; as a professional, your function is to realize your producers' vision, as completely and faithfully as possible. If they'll accept your clever and perceptive input, fine. If they don't, also fine. Unless your name is attached to this at the producer/director level, your part of the whole process, is a paycheck.

A professional who gives the client something great and brilliant, they the client does not want, is practicing his profession badly. The professional who gives the client exactly, precisely, the stupid dumbass lousy product the client explicitly requests, and is paying for, is practicing his profession *well.*

Oh, the irony.
 
I agree with you guys in general, but it seems that there should be a line drawn somewhere. No, it's not their responsibility to worry about my demo reel, but if they pay me to make a video, then ask me to deconstruct the entire thing and make it crap in return, what exactly is the point? Nobody will watch it, everyone will complain, and then it gets forgotten. Time is wasted, everyone winds up unhappy, and it could be be well done and over with if they would simply listen to me.

Maybe you guys are right. Maybe screw creative vision, maybe I should just make crap for the rest of my career. But if I get used to making crap, I'm not going to be making great things, so in my opinion, I need to draw the line somewhere.

However, for this, I'll make the crap they want. I am working very hard at getting out of here, so if they come to me for another piece of crap, hopefully I'll be ready to jump ship and just tell them no.
 
I have been a professional musician in Las Vegas, NV my whole career (well over 35 yrs.). You are hired to do a specific job that pays you a specific amount for services rendered.

Occasionally, there are a few gigs that turn out to be unbelievably great. But for the most part, it's do what the job requires.

I consider myself to be "blessed" for the simple reason that, no matter how mundane, uncreative or just plan "shi*ty" the work is, I'm still making a living playing my drums. Beats swingin' a pick in the rain. Not that there's anything wrong with that but it's labor intensive and back breaking.

This in turn affords me the time and resources to do other artistic endeavors. Such as play / write creative music for jazz or film as well as dabble in indie films.

You might consider yourself fortunate that you are able to work in an enviroment you chose even though you're not being as productive as you would like to be. Make the best of the situation, keep learning and wait for the next door to open. It won't always be this way.


Good luck.

Mark Dalzell / AudioScapes
Las Vegas, NV
www.markdalzell.com
 
Welcome to the real world. Until you can finance your own projects or command such respect that people are willing to finance them for you, you do what people are willing to pay you to do.

I think there are many, many people who would love to have your job, so I'd consider your actions very carefully. You can be replaced within minutes.
 
you can't do anything about other people's stupidity. if they want you to make something that looks like crap it's their problem. if you feel its impinging on your artistic integrity then quit.

the rule is simple: the head honcho (or honchette) always gets what he/she wants. if you don't provide it someone else will. if they are morons and don't take your input for what it's worth then there is little you can do about it. if you don't do what they want you suffer for it. if you do do what you want they suffer for it but will blame you. only final solution to the problem is to become the head honcho/honchette and remember your experience so you don't pull the same crap on your underlings :o)

mor10
 
mrWr0ng said:
They may pay me, but at the end of the day, what good is it going to do for my career if all I have is a bunch of crap on my demo reel? They may pay me some bucks right now, but it's not going to do me any good in the future if there's nothing I can ever show from it without actually hurting my chances at getting a better gig.
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dude use your Good version on yourdemo reel.... are you kidding? Noonesays you have to use thier version. Youre showing offw hat you can do. if you make a recut thats better show that off.....
 
My opinion? give them what they want, but tell them in no uncertain terms that what they want is crap. Hey, if they can't stand your honest opinion and just want a yes man you'll be better off working somewhere else anyway, at least that's how I've always seen it.

Granted, I can be slighty undiplomatic sometimes with how I put things.
 
mrWr0ng said:
if they pay me to make a video, then ask me to deconstruct the entire thing and make it crap in return, what exactly is the point?
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The point is, you get paid to practice your chosen profession, and gain experience - among other things - in handling doofus clients. Which is guaranteed to come in handy.

mrWr0ng said:
Nobody will watch it, everyone will complain, and then it gets forgotten. Time is wasted, everyone winds up unhappy,
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The time isn't wasted; it puts $$$ in your pocket, and maybe makes your client want to hire you again, for future $$$. Plus, they might see the error of their ways in hindsight, and listen to you a little more, next time.

mrWr0ng said:
and it could be be well done and over with if they would simply listen to me.
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Which is precisely what I walked in the door thinking in the morning, and walked out the door thinking at night, on my first television gig. The grizzled old senior I was working with, kept saying, don't be bitter, they pay us the same to erase, as they pay us to draw.

He was right. Now that I'm the lead in my department, I tell my junior hires the exact same thing.


mrWr0ng said:
Maybe you guys are right. Maybe screw creative vision, maybe I should just make crap for the rest of my career.
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Don't be bitter.

Look, if someone else is paying you good money to implement what *they* want, just smile and do your best to give them what they are paying for; it does not reflect badly on you or your creativity, to do that - it's to your credit as a pro. The fact that someone else pays you to make crap to their specs, doesn't mean that everyone else will do the same - and of course, when you are top-kick and doing your *own* work, well, it doesn't have to be crappy at all, does it?


mrWr0ng said:
But if I get used to making crap, I'm not going to be making great things, so in my opinion, I need to draw the line somewhere.
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Well, if James Cameron had started with that philosophy, he would never have taken over as Production Designer on "Battle Beyond the Stars" (crap) or signed on to direct "Pirhana II: The Spawning" (weapons-grade crap). He also would likely have never been later positioned to do 'The Terminator,' 'The Abyss,' or 'Aliens.'

Personally, I'm thankful that he didn't go all snooty at the start of his career*, since I happen to enjoy the work he started doing later, when *he* could call the shots.


mrWr0ng said:
However, for this, I'll make the crap they want. I am working very hard at getting out of here, so if they come to me for another piece of crap, hopefully I'll be ready to jump ship and just tell them no.
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And, when you judge that the next client wants crap, too? That way lies a stillborn career.



*well, okay, he *was* snooty at the start of his career, but not so snooty he didn't know what was good for him.
 
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Buddy,

My bread and butter is corporate video. Few edits, just do some cleanup, color correction, add an intro, an out, maybe lay some music underneath, and viola!!

Now, for that middling work, I get a DVX, will get to go with an HD camera in a year or so, I have an FS-4 Pro, Vegas, PP, AE, broadcast monitor, and they are buying me lavs and lights (shooting for Kinos and Arris). And I get to use THEIR gear when I am not shooting for them.

Don't let artistic vision get in the way of a good deal. You aren't paid to further your vision, you are paid to further theirs. And the better a job you do of it, the more you will be paid. Now that said, you can begin to educate them as you go along as I have at my office. I went from shooting on VHS tapes set on the 6hr setting, to having a full suite of professional gear in 3 years time.

As other's have said, everyone has visions of being the next great director, but check out the early work of some famous directors. Everyone has to pay the bills for a while...
 
Sad Max said:
Well, if James Cameron had started with that philosophy, he would never have taken over as Production Designer on "Battle Beyond the Stars" (crap) or signed on to direct "Pirhana II: The Spawning" (weapons-grade crap). He also would likely have never been later positioned to do 'The Terminator,' 'The Abyss,' or 'Aliens.'
*well, okay, he *was* snooty at the start of his career, but not so snooty he didn't know what was good for him.
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Hey! What was so bad about Battle Beyond the Stars? :huh:
 
Hey, I loved it when I was a kid...and it was the first James Horner score I ever bought...

...and there was the spaceship with giant breasts...

...and the Space Valkyrie in the stainless-steel bikini...

...and John Saxon...

...and George Peppard...

...and Robert Vaughn...

...okay. But 'Pirhana II' was crap, for sure, and I'll stand by that.
 
Haha...I might be netflixing some Pirhana II. I have to say that some of the crap director's I respect have done in their careers can be very inspiring. Makes me feel better about some of the crap I've made, and I'm talking crap I controlled.

EDIT: Wow, that sounded bad, but I'm leaving it up for your enjoyment.
 
This whole thread is disturbing. (well, maybe not the Battle Beyond The Stars part...)

Let's say you hire someone to paint your house. You tell him the color that you want the main house, and the color you want the shutters, and the color you want the trim to be.

Then, while you're away, the "artist" has an "artistic vision" and says "what this guy wants is crap, I think I'll do it MY WAY. I'm the painter, after all. I know better than he does."

So you come home and find your house is pink and green with fuschia trim.

What would you do?

That's right, you'd go nuclear, you'd refuse to pay, and you'd sue the guy for the cost and expense to have some other painter come in and DO IT RIGHT.

(meaning, the way YOU want.)

So look at it from their perspective. And give them what they want. And if you can't do that, you shouldn't be in the business. Get a day job and make your art at night, to your own specifications. But by golly, if someone hires you to do something for them, you should do your very, very best to give them EXACTLY what they want, to the best of your abilities, no questions asked. And you should take pride in doing that.
 
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