Will Red Scarlet close adapters market?
- Thread starter powertase
- Start date
William_Robinette
Shallow Member
For a S35 Scarlet you are looking at way more then $3k...
Joseph Stunzi
Veteran
I agree with Will. In reality adapters will be around for some time. I've even heard rumor of interfacing between the RED and adapters as a future solution.
People assume that the RED workflow is going to work for everyone... and while I may not know much about the future Scarlet workflow... I can assure you it's not for everyone.
Another thing to consider is that most adapters are full frame or capable of that. The new relays may limit you to academy framing for the time being (Cinevates will change that... maybe something cool with surface from Letus or Redrock in the full frame range?)... but the majority of adapter users are using full frame lenses and vistavision framing. Thus... a S35 RED Scarlet will crop your image significantly... a FF35 RED Scarlet is the closest we can get to adapters. It's disadvantaged by the cost. But has so many advantages over using the long camera rigs that we've become accustomed to.
By the time you add a viewfinder, hard drive / CF solution, handle, pro cinema module, brain, battery module... these things are going to cost way more the $3,000!
People assume that the RED workflow is going to work for everyone... and while I may not know much about the future Scarlet workflow... I can assure you it's not for everyone.
Another thing to consider is that most adapters are full frame or capable of that. The new relays may limit you to academy framing for the time being (Cinevates will change that... maybe something cool with surface from Letus or Redrock in the full frame range?)... but the majority of adapter users are using full frame lenses and vistavision framing. Thus... a S35 RED Scarlet will crop your image significantly... a FF35 RED Scarlet is the closest we can get to adapters. It's disadvantaged by the cost. But has so many advantages over using the long camera rigs that we've become accustomed to.
By the time you add a viewfinder, hard drive / CF solution, handle, pro cinema module, brain, battery module... these things are going to cost way more the $3,000!
hoarp001
Veteran
The problem is, everyone wants a scarlet. Every single person on this forum wants a scarlet, and there is no way that RED will be able to cope with the numbers of people that want these things. There will be a massive wait on the cameras once they are finally available. Also don't forget that the Red One at 17,500 seems cheap, but you need to spend a lot more than that to get a rig that works, nearer 30-40,000 dollars, and you need lenses to use on them.
The Scarlet is promising, but personally I dont think it will totaly change the 35mm adapter industry overnight. Obviously it will have an impact, but I wouldn't say Scarlet is going to change things too much just yet.
I think Canons rumoured full frame camera using the 5D sensor is much more of a threat at the moment....
Either way, all of these rigs need a remote focus. ;-)
The Scarlet is promising, but personally I dont think it will totaly change the 35mm adapter industry overnight. Obviously it will have an impact, but I wouldn't say Scarlet is going to change things too much just yet.
I think Canons rumoured full frame camera using the 5D sensor is much more of a threat at the moment....
Either way, all of these rigs need a remote focus. ;-)
Yeah, the wait time is a killer. Perhaps this time around, RED will be able to ramp up production on these cameras and mass produce them like Canon but I have serious doubts. "Jannard" is well intentioned, but unfortunately the low prices produce huge wait lists for anything they sell. When buying an expensive camera and lenses, you have to time it just right so that you have enough work lined up after you buy it to recoup some of its cost. But with the wait times, that's very hard to do. I would not mind paying 20K for a camera, but it would kill me if it was just sitting around after purchase.
Even the RED 2/3" cinema is an attractive option: 3K and claimed 11+ stops of latitude (we shall see).
Even the RED 2/3" cinema is an attractive option: 3K and claimed 11+ stops of latitude (we shall see).
Joseph Stunzi
Veteran
Well said Peter. Well said!
I've certainly noticed lots of movement towards accessories within the adapter companies. Everyone has a support system... but look at Cinevate and all of their great dolly/slider/cable cam offerings. Redrock and other adapter companies are doing the same... getting into DSLRs (isn't Redrock on version 2 of these bad boys) and everything.
Back on topic, I know RED wants to surprise us all. I wouldn't say that everyone on these boards wants a RED... I also wouldn't say that half of the people on here or even ScarletUser will buy a RED. But I know RED's pricing structure will probably impress all of us. Since RED is all anti-hollywood in their strategy.
In the end, you do what you can with what you got. I've seen better films on a HV20 with Home Depot lighting than I can make with a HVX200, 35mm adapter, Zeiss ZF prime set, and a pro light kit.
I've certainly noticed lots of movement towards accessories within the adapter companies. Everyone has a support system... but look at Cinevate and all of their great dolly/slider/cable cam offerings. Redrock and other adapter companies are doing the same... getting into DSLRs (isn't Redrock on version 2 of these bad boys) and everything.
Back on topic, I know RED wants to surprise us all. I wouldn't say that everyone on these boards wants a RED... I also wouldn't say that half of the people on here or even ScarletUser will buy a RED. But I know RED's pricing structure will probably impress all of us. Since RED is all anti-hollywood in their strategy.
In the end, you do what you can with what you got. I've seen better films on a HV20 with Home Depot lighting than I can make with a HVX200, 35mm adapter, Zeiss ZF prime set, and a pro light kit.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Depends on what Scarlet you're talking about. A fixed-lens scarlet with a maximum opening of f/2.8 wouldn't deliver very shallow DOF at all.
Mike Harvey
Veteran
You're wrong
The Epic starts at $28k, but the according to the website, the Scarlet brain is between $2.5k and almost $10k depending on the version.
William_Robinette
Shallow Member
Another thing that is funny (and I am no 1st AC...) is how difficult it it to follow focus in FF35 format and how few people realize this. FF35 can get shallow as a few inches and you are not going to be able to pick it up and run with it. It will take time for you to learn how to pull focus on that format (even S35 isn't a walk in the park).
Sure, if you are doing stuff like Kholi's "thrifting" or similar (most of my projects would be OK too) it is one thing. Focus mistakes and stuff are acceptable depending on style, but if you are going out to have everything in focus like the pros, I think everyone is going to be in for a rude awakening...
Sure, if you are doing stuff like Kholi's "thrifting" or similar (most of my projects would be OK too) it is one thing. Focus mistakes and stuff are acceptable depending on style, but if you are going out to have everything in focus like the pros, I think everyone is going to be in for a rude awakening...
On the few reality shows I've had to work on as a stupid "camera utility" person, I have seen good operators who can both operate and pull focus at the same time - but those are on 2/3" or 1/3" cameras. Even then, they often buzzed a lot of shots which is usually OK for reality and docs.
I think most people here are well aware that shooting 35mm or 35mm sensor movies requires a focus puller for any "serious" project where people - especially investors - would bite your head off if a lot of stuff came out buzzed our out of focus. In fact the DP would feel like crap for bringing on a 1st who can't focus, if there were not extraneous circumstances to excuse the errors. You put all that effor into lighting it - and it's not in focus? Recently, in "Adventureland" I noticed a lot of very soft shots - and that was a well funded movie. Actors missing their marks, smalls shifts in camera placement, tired focus puller, etc. who knows what could have caused it but it can happen to the best crews.
It is possible that Kholi and other operators in this adapter forum can pull their own focus with 35mm DOF cameras simply because they're used to it - but if you're shooting in 35mm or with a RED you're already putting some funding into the project and I would want my operator to do what operators do: compose the shot, check focus visually, work with the dolly grip on the move, and the AC on all the marks and tell me if they see problems I've missed.
So yes, people who are more the low budget, minimal crew run and gun type of shooter would be wise to stay with 1/3" and the 2/3" Scarlet.
I think most people here are well aware that shooting 35mm or 35mm sensor movies requires a focus puller for any "serious" project where people - especially investors - would bite your head off if a lot of stuff came out buzzed our out of focus. In fact the DP would feel like crap for bringing on a 1st who can't focus, if there were not extraneous circumstances to excuse the errors. You put all that effor into lighting it - and it's not in focus? Recently, in "Adventureland" I noticed a lot of very soft shots - and that was a well funded movie. Actors missing their marks, smalls shifts in camera placement, tired focus puller, etc. who knows what could have caused it but it can happen to the best crews.
It is possible that Kholi and other operators in this adapter forum can pull their own focus with 35mm DOF cameras simply because they're used to it - but if you're shooting in 35mm or with a RED you're already putting some funding into the project and I would want my operator to do what operators do: compose the shot, check focus visually, work with the dolly grip on the move, and the AC on all the marks and tell me if they see problems I've missed.
So yes, people who are more the low budget, minimal crew run and gun type of shooter would be wise to stay with 1/3" and the 2/3" Scarlet.
Joseph Stunzi
Veteran
I think the point of the new generation of RED cameras is to target the indie market of shooters who don't necessarily have a budget for their feature film and what not.
Plenty of people pull their own focus with 35mm adapters. It's not that bad especially when you're on sticks!
We can go on-and-on about operation... but to answer this threads question, I think it's a pretty good consensus that the RED Generation 2 cameras will not lead the 35mm adapter industry to die away anytime soon. If it were going to do so, you would've seen the adapter companies react already in a drastic way!
The real game changer as many have realized are these VDSLRs. You get the full frame FOV. You get the bokeh and the ability to use still lenses. You don't get the full manual control quite yet on all of them (but that GH-1 looks nice)! And you get all of this for a cheaper price than a camera and adapter combined. And you record to SD or CF which is a much cheaper media too!
Go DOFAs! Go RED! Go Kholi!
Plenty of people pull their own focus with 35mm adapters. It's not that bad especially when you're on sticks!
We can go on-and-on about operation... but to answer this threads question, I think it's a pretty good consensus that the RED Generation 2 cameras will not lead the 35mm adapter industry to die away anytime soon. If it were going to do so, you would've seen the adapter companies react already in a drastic way!
The real game changer as many have realized are these VDSLRs. You get the full frame FOV. You get the bokeh and the ability to use still lenses. You don't get the full manual control quite yet on all of them (but that GH-1 looks nice)! And you get all of this for a cheaper price than a camera and adapter combined. And you record to SD or CF which is a much cheaper media too!
Go DOFAs! Go RED! Go Kholi!
Tim Naylor
Veteran
I think the Scarlet will have a huge a effect on the adaptor market. Maybe not on the hobbyist end (personal projects, etc). But on the indie cameraman end, low budget featrues, music videos, etc. I think it'll drive the nail in the coffin. As someone who rents both RED ONE and 35 Adaptor rigs, I've seen a huge shift from adaptor to RED from rental clients. There's such a saturation of RED's out there that you can rent one for relatively cheap. A year ago or more, my adaptor rigs were out all the time. Since the RED tide has come into NYC, I rarely rent it at all. In fact, I've sold mine and just subrent the adaptor when needed. RED camera is out all the time and it's on both high end and low budget gigs. I believe the price point of the scarlet will be hugely attractive to adaptor owners as they already have most the accessories that jack the price up on putting together a functional rig (MB, FF, Still Lenses, Tripod, etc).
Some of my best work has been done with adaptors, but I will not miss the mechanical and optical unreliablitiy, the poor build as well as the light and rez loss. For my own jobs, because of reliablity issues, I stopped using adaptors altogether for client work - they pose too great a risk. I'm sure many of you have had better experiences than I. I tend to be a heavy user of anything I own, so the probability of breakdown on set can be high. If I have a back up unit, I might as well be shooting on RED.
That said, I'm sure RED will have demand issues at first, but if you can get in line early I think it would be worth it to have low cost alternative to adpators or a B camera to your RED. The expense you have to factor in for a adaptors are the adpator, the bracketry and the camera. Now you're in Scarlet price range.
Some of my best work has been done with adaptors, but I will not miss the mechanical and optical unreliablitiy, the poor build as well as the light and rez loss. For my own jobs, because of reliablity issues, I stopped using adaptors altogether for client work - they pose too great a risk. I'm sure many of you have had better experiences than I. I tend to be a heavy user of anything I own, so the probability of breakdown on set can be high. If I have a back up unit, I might as well be shooting on RED.
That said, I'm sure RED will have demand issues at first, but if you can get in line early I think it would be worth it to have low cost alternative to adpators or a B camera to your RED. The expense you have to factor in for a adaptors are the adpator, the bracketry and the camera. Now you're in Scarlet price range.
astigmatic
Well-known member
well, honestly the Scarlet will have an a effect on the whole market, VDSLRs included. It's the resolution factor. Everyone's gonna go crazy for the resolution. I honestly would rather slap my adapter on the scarlet 2/3 fixed that use any DSLR out there.
Finnegan
Well-known member
I don't know why but I'm like 100% opposed to shooting anything but digital stills on a DSLR. it's not that I'm in denial about whether or not they're capable of producing a great film, but more along the lines that most if not all DSLRs lack the functions that allow the user to make a project look truly filmic. I'd take a lower end video cam with 24F/P capability over a DSLR like canon's 5D MKII with (I think) is incapable of shooting at cinematic standard.
as for the thread topic: as a graduate film student, the idea of a super high quality cam that won't cost me an arm and a leg greatly intrigues me. but even if the brain of a red scarlet costs between $3,000 and $10,000 (which is a lot, for me) all the other peripherals and lenses will easily push it out of my range, and that scares me away from the idea.
I mean seriously, a full red scarlet rig - estimations on a ballpark price?
as for the thread topic: as a graduate film student, the idea of a super high quality cam that won't cost me an arm and a leg greatly intrigues me. but even if the brain of a red scarlet costs between $3,000 and $10,000 (which is a lot, for me) all the other peripherals and lenses will easily push it out of my range, and that scares me away from the idea.
I mean seriously, a full red scarlet rig - estimations on a ballpark price?
I've seen a lot of adapter footage, and I would much rather put a Classic Soft on a RED camera than shoot with an adapter - if given the choice and budget.
I like the idea that one can shoot with VDSLR's, but I think even the 2/3" Scarlet cinema will be more configurable with more i/o modules available than any Canon 5D configuration - if I can get live HD-SDI out on a Scarlet like you can on a RED, that's it, I can use the little thing for professional jobs.
I plan to get both the S35mm Scarlet and the 2/3" cinema - the 2/3" cinema would be great where size, cost and compactness would really benefit a shoot. I probably will just rent equipment up until that time, but who know what will shake in the next six months.
I like the idea that one can shoot with VDSLR's, but I think even the 2/3" Scarlet cinema will be more configurable with more i/o modules available than any Canon 5D configuration - if I can get live HD-SDI out on a Scarlet like you can on a RED, that's it, I can use the little thing for professional jobs.
I plan to get both the S35mm Scarlet and the 2/3" cinema - the 2/3" cinema would be great where size, cost and compactness would really benefit a shoot. I probably will just rent equipment up until that time, but who know what will shake in the next six months.
thekreative
Veteran
Just my 2 bits but I loved my HVX/Lex setup and thought it would be around for years, but I bought a 5d and sold all my adapter stuff as soon as I saw the images it produced.
Leo Versola
Well-known member
Man, ain't that the truth. I just finished a short where we used a lot of longer focal lengths for ECU's and CU's and boy, it was tough to keep things in focus, even with an FF marked off. The DoF was was so shallow in some cases that even the actors moving forward or backward only an inch created problems (even at higher f-stops like 5.6 and 8.0)...