Why the SD702 over the PMD661?

S

StMad

Well-known member
Hi all,

I'm heading over to Peru next year to shoot a doc (one man band), and want the best possible sound within my budget (obviously :)). That budget will be 4k for mics (2x Schoeps looks likely), and 2k for recorder. The reason I don't include a mixer is for portability and managability (one man band). I've been getting along ok with my H4N, but I'm after better for this more serious production.

I'm sure we're all familiar with the Wingfield site, it seems helpful though I've seen it mentioned that it may not be reliable. That said, when I listen to the noise floor tests, I'm more than comfortable with what I'm hearing from the PMD661 (most of the recorders for that matter - not the h4n). To my ears, the 702 doesn't stand out here - again, testing may be an issue, but again, I'm comfortable with what I'm hearing from the PMD661. Keeping in mind I'm flying solo...any thoughts on whether the 702 would be a better option for me?

I'm also curious whether the Rolls PB224 power supply might be boosting the performance of the 661? I've searched but I haven't been able to work this out.

Big thanks,

Steve
 
Unless your expedition is limited to shooting in major urban areas, going off to foreign lands far from home where service and replacement gear may be unavailable means that reliability and ruggedness should be as important as the basic sound quality. SD recorders have been field-proven to reliably bring home quality recordings from environments ranging from the Sahara to the High Arctic to the Amazon jungle. (Sounds like I work for SD but I don't, I'm just impressed with the company and its products.) If I were going to Peru anyway and just taking along some gear to shoot casually, it might be one thing. But if I were making such a trip expressly for the purpose of making a film, especially if traveling to remote areas, I wouldn't risk compromises. Equipment failure after arriving on-site means the whole trip is a bust.
 
+1 for Steve's comments. You (or someone) may need to ride the audio in live situations. (why not hire a local sound engineer to work with you? I bet they are cheap compared to North American rates or Euros and I bet they would love the work! - See "Even the Rain" for a good understanding of this) .

It is *far* easier to work with a mixer to do that than ride in on camera or on the deck. I use both a Tascam HD-P2 (which some sound engineers have raved about when they use it with me) through a SD. It is much easier to deal with given the wonderful meters of the SD gear. And they are the new gold standard for reliability and quality. The PMD661 is a great little deck, married up to an SD, it should make things even easier. But I do understand how hard it is to deal with all the gear on location when you are alone. I do it too.

I have learned the hard way to listen to my wife, who says, "just spend the money and buy the best tool for the job!" That's why I married her (or at least one reason).
I've bought more than my share of the same gear twice, due to buying the cheaper model once, or foregoing the right tool because of cost.
 
I've travelled to Peru and shot a doco with my wife. The most important aspect is to travel light and take as many spare batteries as you can. Sometimes you can't get back to the charger you left charging back at the hostel for a day or so.

Take it from me, you'll miss stuff if you play around with too much sound gear. Forget taking Schoeps etc, most people won't *understand* the quality, your shots, the list and selection are way more important. Shoot on at least a 3:1 ratio, for every 3 shots, you use one, that'll keep you busy enough.

So I'd just concentrate on getting good area sfx and come back with some CDs of local music for background, they'll be happy with a credit. You'll run across some live music, you only want 20secs, ask them first and offer modest US cash. Take notes for your narration track.

Once you get past customs, downtown Lima is OK, and safe before 2000hrs. You might need Police clearances now to shoot around town, check first. If they stop you the game will be over if you don't follow some basic Spanish. Keep smiling and carry photostats of all your papers.

There's an underground Peruvian ancient artifact museum just out of town, it's worth a visit.

Travel by train to Machu Pichu, don't fly. Air Peru was in chapter 11 when we were there and the previous weeks charter flight actually crashed. The train trip from Cusco is great, get to the station early and sit up the very front for some great footage en route.

Machu Pichu is out of this world, literally. Read up about everything and make notes before you go. You can roughly storyboard it with a shooting script. Dawn breaking over those ruins is a must .. and those Alpacas will bite .. :) Altitude sickness is common at that height, if you feel light headed and dizzy let the hotel know asap, just chicken soup, no alcohol, sleep and rest for 2 days will help acclimatise. Some hotels have oxygen available at reception, luckily I was Ok but my wife asked me to kiss her goodbye at one point.

Check your footage each night in the hostel and stay off the local hooch, Chilean wine is better. Have a safe trip.

Cheers.
 
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You did not tell which camera you will be using. Most prosumer level video cameras have good enough audio for broadcast and documentaries. I have measured over 92 dB dynamic ranges from Canon cameras when fed from SD302 at line level. My choice would be a SD302 mixer feeding the camera, it has great limiters and big meters, better ergonomics than SD702 in that sense. The more complicated the system is the more can and will go wrong. With a separate audio system you need to push twice as many buttons just to start and stop a take. For street shooting using just the camera is the safest way to go, as both the cops and robbers might notice you if you carry too much professional looking gear.
 
Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems to me you maybe trying to take on too much.. how do you intend to boom, mix audio, shoot AND carry around all the gear. While the Schoeps/SD is a really nice set-up, if you can't get the mic in close proximity to the sound source, the $6k your going to spend ain't gonna help much. I would look into hiring an experienced local A1 if possible, preferably one who knows the area and can translate too.
 
StMad said:
Hi all,

I'm heading over to Peru next year to shoot a doc (one man band), and want the best possible sound within my budget (obviously :)). That budget will be 4k for mics (2x Schoeps looks likely), and 2k for recorder. The reason I don't include a mixer is for portability and managability (one man band). I've been getting along ok with my H4N, but I'm after better for this more serious production.

I'm sure we're all familiar with the Wingfield site, it seems helpful though I've seen it mentioned that it may not be reliable. That said, when I listen to the noise floor tests, I'm more than comfortable with what I'm hearing from the PMD661 (most of the recorders for that matter - not the h4n). To my ears, the 702 doesn't stand out here - again, testing may be an issue, but again, I'm comfortable with what I'm hearing from the PMD661. Keeping in mind I'm flying solo...any thoughts on whether the 702 would be a better option for me?

I'm also curious whether the Rolls PB224 power supply might be boosting the performance of the 661? I've searched but I haven't been able to work this out.

Big thanks,

Steve
Click to expand...

The Sound Devices is a real field proven professional recorder - that's the one I would choose with the budget you have.
 
Petrus said:
You did not tell which camera you will be using. Most prosumer level video cameras have good enough audio for broadcast and documentaries. I have measured over 92 dB dynamic ranges from Canon cameras when fed from SD302 at line level. My choice would be a SD302 mixer feeding the camera, it has great limiters and big meters, better ergonomics than SD702 in that sense. The more complicated the system is the more can and will go wrong. With a separate audio system you need to push twice as many buttons just to start and stop a take. For street shooting using just the camera is the safest way to go, as both the cops and robbers might notice you if you carry too much professional looking gear.
Click to expand...

Maybe better yet, the new MixPreD which can be mounted beneath a handycam.

Grant
 
Thanks guys. I'd reckon there's a hundred years of audio experience in these replies...I'm grateful.

Full disclosure...I balled with a guy at uni (here in Australia), and other than that he was a quality trash talker, I knew nothing about him. I learn later that he's cast aside his comforts to set up a charitable organisation in Peru - sonrisasenperu.org - judging the book...I would never have seen this coming. This guy seems to have it all (in the superficial sense, at least)...so to take this path, in times in which we seem more and more to recognise and reward the superficial...well, I'm compelled.

Anyway, I'll head over either on my lonesome, or with friend or partner. I'll get about light, everything in a good size Naneu backpack, and stand, tripod and maybe slider in their own bag. I expect most of the important audio will captured in controlled situations (classroom interviews), so I'll use a mic stand for those setups, and I've got 2 G2 sets for when I go mobile. I was originally leaning toward dslr and separate audio, however the more I think about it, the more I warm to the idea of using a traditional video cam. Staying light and low profile is of major concern to me...but something like the C300 may be small enough to meet this requirement.

Grant, the MixPreD looks like an elegant solution. The MixPreD into anything (h4n, video cam) will sound great, yes? And thanks Petrus...your approach may work out best.

Rick - taking on too much? It's possible. I'll test and test again leading up to the trip, but from experience I think I'll be ok. Hiring local is something I hadn't considered and worth looking into...just have to overcome my trust issues.

Raster...many nuggets there...very inspiring. The Schoeps (or something similar) will be a forever after purchase, so makes sense for me. Scott (subject) is based near Cusco, so I'll spend little time in Lima. From what I've been reading that may be a good thing. Sorry to the Liman's out there. Appreciate your comments on travel, alcohol and alpacas :). As for Machu Pichu...it may not feature too heavily other than for Peruvian background...but wow, what production value.
 
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