squig
Veteran
Really? How do you know for sure that it doesn't? Have you shot with all 4?
I'm not saying he's right I'll make my own judgement but Canon's new sensors are pretty amazing.
Why the downer on the 1D C?
- Thread starter Graemsay
- Start date
Really? How do you know for sure that it doesn't? Have you shot with all 4?
I'm not saying he's right I'll make my own judgement but Canon's new sensors are pretty amazing.
Here's somethings to consider:
Form factor/Professional shooters
I'm no expert, but one observation of mine is how STEADILY professional shooters have panned/hated the DSLR form factor. I'm not saying that they ALL do, but many from that side of the house have NOT been fans of the form factor. (Let alone the images.) So I think that this cam has that against it from that crowd.
Price/Form factor
Another observation is how indie folks with a micro budget have accepted shooting with almost ANY form factor AS LONG AS: 1. The price is right (less than $1K) and 2. The IQ is great. So DSLR form factor is just fine with this crowd. That said, this camera's price doesn't work for that crowd. ("I could buy 30 GH2's for that PRICE!!!!!" That comment is coming I promise, just wait....)
Bad Timing
One final consideration is like when the film, "The Others" was released. I felt soooo bad for those folks. (***SPOILER ALERT***)
I felt like the film was brilliant, but I had just got done watching, "The Sixth Sense". I don't think I ***CHOSE*** to compare it, it's just a natural reaction of seeing one "option", then seeing another "option". (So I had figured out that they were "dead" long before the end of the film...and that made it awkward when they tried to "spring" it on me....uh, ya, ...I just saw the same thing in another movie 2 weeks ago.)
In other words, this is a tough time for ANY CINEMA CAMERA to be launched. (Like poor Lionel Richie handing out all those awards to Michael Jackson for "Thriller".....or golfers from Tiger's prime....) Inherently we're going to compare it to the Black Camera....and it's a TOUGH SELL in the eyes of many.
Summary
So, consider the idea that for many PROS, the form factor doesn't work.
For micro budget shooters who don't mind the form factor, the price doesn't work.
Being launched in the same window as Black Camera is bound to invite comparisons (and that won't likely favor the 1D-C).
I have no "bad blood" for the cam for goodness sakes, but, I think these factors may be weighing on many folks.
Anywho...that's my 2 cents. Cheers!
Form factor/Professional shooters
I'm no expert, but one observation of mine is how STEADILY professional shooters have panned/hated the DSLR form factor. I'm not saying that they ALL do, but many from that side of the house have NOT been fans of the form factor. (Let alone the images.) So I think that this cam has that against it from that crowd.
Price/Form factor
Another observation is how indie folks with a micro budget have accepted shooting with almost ANY form factor AS LONG AS: 1. The price is right (less than $1K) and 2. The IQ is great. So DSLR form factor is just fine with this crowd. That said, this camera's price doesn't work for that crowd. ("I could buy 30 GH2's for that PRICE!!!!!" That comment is coming I promise, just wait....)
Bad Timing
One final consideration is like when the film, "The Others" was released. I felt soooo bad for those folks. (***SPOILER ALERT***)
I felt like the film was brilliant, but I had just got done watching, "The Sixth Sense". I don't think I ***CHOSE*** to compare it, it's just a natural reaction of seeing one "option", then seeing another "option". (So I had figured out that they were "dead" long before the end of the film...and that made it awkward when they tried to "spring" it on me....uh, ya, ...I just saw the same thing in another movie 2 weeks ago.)
In other words, this is a tough time for ANY CINEMA CAMERA to be launched. (Like poor Lionel Richie handing out all those awards to Michael Jackson for "Thriller".....or golfers from Tiger's prime....) Inherently we're going to compare it to the Black Camera....and it's a TOUGH SELL in the eyes of many.
Summary
So, consider the idea that for many PROS, the form factor doesn't work.
For micro budget shooters who don't mind the form factor, the price doesn't work.
Being launched in the same window as Black Camera is bound to invite comparisons (and that won't likely favor the 1D-C).
I have no "bad blood" for the cam for goodness sakes, but, I think these factors may be weighing on many folks.
Anywho...that's my 2 cents. Cheers!
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cowpunk52
Veteran
He did say that, and I would agree that it is a bit silly based on what I've experience with the capabilities of both the Epic and the Alexa. But I don't know that he's a paid Canon shill, though - he's panned the C300 pretty hard on a few occasions. I think he just has a particular aesthetic that he likes, and it just so happens to be the DSLR aesthetic. We're all entitled to our opinions.
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Yep. Dvxuser, there are lot of indy video people, amateurs, students, etc. The 1DC does not hit the sweet spot for these people especially in regards to cost. If there was a forum that catered to people who have million dollar budgets, unlimited funds, or even "higher" budgets. then perhaps on that forum, there would be more "excitement". But lets get real. There's a reason that type of forum does not exist on the internet
Or even if it did, there's a reason its not very popular.Canon can/has decided to sell their equipment to "real directors"... "real cinematographers".. with higher budgets, etc. for more $$$$$$$ but they will be playing in a very small niche. Their equipment will not cause the mass hysteria like the blackmagic....... because well, NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE will care... at least, the type of people that are on dvxuser.
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cowpunk52
Veteran
I don't think this is backed up by reality, actually. The DSLR form factor has been widely embraced by Hollywood and professional filmmakers all over the world. Many broadcast television and mid to high budget feature productions that use it (and there are a lot), do so specifically because of the form factor. It gives a look they need (35mm-style) in a form factor that is enormously beneficial in many cases. The DSLR form factor makes it especially capable at getting unique images that weren't ever possible before - and if a product releases creativity, it will be embraced.
For the pros on here, if you watch that video, his explanation for why it costs so much more than the 1DX, does it sound plausible to you? To me it rings hollow but you guys are used to paying out the nose for seemingly minor things so you might think the substantial increase in price is perfectly legitimate. I've no doubt it can shoot beautiful footage.
Edited to say, I'm not saying the improvements over the 1DX in terms of video are minor things by the way. I think they'e pretty significant. Just not sure they're that much more significant- at least to me. But as has been pointed out, this camera is not meant for people like me.
Edited to say, I'm not saying the improvements over the 1DX in terms of video are minor things by the way. I think they'e pretty significant. Just not sure they're that much more significant- at least to me. But as has been pointed out, this camera is not meant for people like me.
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Oooohhhhhh.....cowpunk....I fear for your safety. :evil:
I didn't make that up for my own sake...that has been hammered into the eyeballs of most of us for quite some time now, (lol).
So...that's not ***MY*** opinion. That's what I've heard over and over here for a very long time.
I hear you. I agree with your comment. I fear for your safety. (lol)
squig
Veteran
And all this time I thought I was part of the 99%
Can't say that I'm all that excited about the 1D C given the price and the Blackmagic announcement plus the 5D MKIII is producing some really nice images. If it was priced like the 1D X it might be a different story.
Luis Caffesse
Admin
+1
I was shocked how good it looked.
And keep in mind we're talking about projected on a huge cinema screen.
The camera is no joke. Sure, it has it's issues (price being one of them) - but the 4K 24p image was very impressive (the 60p 1080p slomo not so much).
Ha ha ha - yeah, maybe I should go undercover for a bit...
Cheers Buddy!
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
Yes he did.
It was more than just a bit silly.
I was willing to listen to him say he rightly loves the camera, form factor, light sensitivity, etc.
But that statement made pretty much made everyone in the audience turn to each other and go "WTF?"
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
Well, I have shot with and graded the Alexa and the Epic and seen and graded the F65.
There's no way an mjpeg camera will stand with Arri-raw, Red raw, or Sony's current camera.
It's just physics.
Does it look good? Sure it does. To my eye most Canon's do, but to make a statement that mjpeg will "make the others look like sh!t" goes beyond fanboism.
Out of everyone, I would think that the 1DC WOULD be marketed towards people like Dan Chung.... BUT EVEN Dan Chung cannot afford the 1DC, this makes one wonder who the REAL market for this camera is... oh yeah, that's right.. the "Cinema" people
I'm sure the small section of "Cinema" people are happily jumping up and down because of the 1DC. Can you hear them? I'm sure they're out there somewhere. It's just that their population is so, so, small... On the other hand, most OTHER people just don't care about this camera as much... these "OTHER" people -- they make up the vast majority of video people.... Their silence is deafening to most companies.. obviously, not to Canon. Canon does not care nor do they even notice.
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squig
Veteran
Of-course RAW beats mjpeg but with a log profile and high bit-rate the quality gap is narrowing. I shoot RAW stills but I'm limited to H.264 video which means I really have to be on my game and nail white balance and exposure in every shot. Shane knew what he was saying and who he was saying it to and he's usually on the money when he gives an opinion. I would imagine he was talking in terms of what the sensor is capable of and the final graded image. I personally would have preferred 2k RAW over 4k mjpeg.
Brian@202020
Veteran
dustylense
Veteran
Well see, that is 1 side of RAW that is sometimes a negative. That is, the belief that it all can be done in post. An old saying, "garbage in, garbage out". Even with raw, one should still shoot as if it were baked in. Raw can make a shooter lazy. So, if you can do it in mjpeg, and transfer that mind set into a raw workflow, you will get better results.
I would like the 1Dc, but it is too much money for my skill level. Put that puppy at say $9000 and I'd be all over it. I'm most likely gonna sit out any purchase of the recent cams at NAB. The BMDC looks great and it's a step in the right direction. But I think that all these cameras are going to force the industry to re-evaluate what they are doing. The BMDC will only get better, and the thought of a 1Dc will only get cheaper. Until then, the cameras in my bag will do just fine and I'll improve my skills with them rather than thinking a camera will do it for me.
Zephyrnoid
Veteran
Form Factor- Well. I think it's too personal to matter. I grew up around Nikon SLRs and Hasselblads and my personal preference for the angles that I like to hold and mount cameras is the boxy Hassy. DSLR form factor is lovely for eye-level shooting, close to your face. I think of HCB invisible documenting the world around him with his Leica M3s. Now once you agree that you will frame your camera with a scaffold of rails, mounts, arms and other appendages... form factor becomes irrelevant, except that sometimes the 'box' conforms more elegantly to the scaffolding.
RAW- I had to spend nearly 20 hrs in class, 20 years ago to learn how to manipulate RAW files. That begins with an immersion in the color space and the difference between grading RAW and grading everything else. In honesty, I doubt too many of the RAW proponents would be so fond of it if they had to deal with the excruciating nuances of this fine format. It seems to be a fad to want Uncompressed 10bit RAW capture. A bit like thinking if you have a slab of RAW Tuna before you that you are a Sushi chef in waiting. Takes years to master both, RAW manipulation and RAW Tuna
Price- Ooof! Only in America do we constantly want more for less money. Everyone else is used to paying through the nose and the result in that they spend more time producing, and less time talking than us. Cheaper gas, cars, vacations, electronics.... it's endless. The cost comparisons matter but they are a distraction. If more people adopted my rule, they'd be less worried about price and more worried about avoiding wasted money in the long run. Here's my rule. Can I get a ROI in the first project in the pipeline or within 6 months, whichever comes first? If Yes then Buy, If No then Rent or postpone. Unless you are a collector of electronic gear or hobbyist, in which case price matters because the spending isn't profit driven, but rather discretionary 'play money'. After all, we all know we're on the loosing end of the stick if all we want is the 'Latest'. It simply doesn't matter how cheap it is if we end up constantly replacing it. I like to run my gear into the ground, squeezing every dime of value out of it.
Finally. You Manufacturers. You know darn well you are exploiting wüderlust in La La Land and you know how much that gear really costs you to produce, even factoring in R&D, tooling, and marketing. You KNOW that $15,000 camera costs you $500 to make so why not be a Little less greedy and let's build gear that lasts more than 3 years.
RAW- I had to spend nearly 20 hrs in class, 20 years ago to learn how to manipulate RAW files. That begins with an immersion in the color space and the difference between grading RAW and grading everything else. In honesty, I doubt too many of the RAW proponents would be so fond of it if they had to deal with the excruciating nuances of this fine format. It seems to be a fad to want Uncompressed 10bit RAW capture. A bit like thinking if you have a slab of RAW Tuna before you that you are a Sushi chef in waiting. Takes years to master both, RAW manipulation and RAW Tuna
Price- Ooof! Only in America do we constantly want more for less money. Everyone else is used to paying through the nose and the result in that they spend more time producing, and less time talking than us. Cheaper gas, cars, vacations, electronics.... it's endless. The cost comparisons matter but they are a distraction. If more people adopted my rule, they'd be less worried about price and more worried about avoiding wasted money in the long run. Here's my rule. Can I get a ROI in the first project in the pipeline or within 6 months, whichever comes first? If Yes then Buy, If No then Rent or postpone. Unless you are a collector of electronic gear or hobbyist, in which case price matters because the spending isn't profit driven, but rather discretionary 'play money'. After all, we all know we're on the loosing end of the stick if all we want is the 'Latest'. It simply doesn't matter how cheap it is if we end up constantly replacing it. I like to run my gear into the ground, squeezing every dime of value out of it.
Finally. You Manufacturers. You know darn well you are exploiting wüderlust in La La Land and you know how much that gear really costs you to produce, even factoring in R&D, tooling, and marketing. You KNOW that $15,000 camera costs you $500 to make so why not be a Little less greedy and let's build gear that lasts more than 3 years.
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Grug
Veteran
I assume he simply loves the Vistavision aesthetic of the 135-sized sensor over convention S35mm.