Why no MS stereo on-cam?

[Petrus]

After playing around with stereo microphones I realized that there is a major fault with prosumer video cameras: they should have a MS stereo microphone as their built-in mic.

As we all know, Mid-Side stereo has two microphones, cardioid or hypercardioid pointing ahad (M) and figure-of-eight behind (or above/under) it pointing sideways (S). By summing the signals we get left (M+S) and right (M-S) channels. This also makes a perfect mono signal, either use only the M mic, or sum the L and R signals (M+S+M-S=2M). By varying the level of S signal we can adjust the stereo spread, also during edit.

So, with this arrangement we could either use the buit-in mic as usual in stereo, or pick only the (hyper)cardioid M to one channel, use the other channel for boom shotgun, wireless, whatever. Also to record separate M and S signals to be matrixed later. Actually even matrixed LR signal yields M and S: L-R = 2S, L+R=2M, having a LR-MS switch would just be convenient.

In all cameras I have used so far using the built-in mic for a backup channel meant getting only one channel (DVX100), if any (HX-A1). The system described above would make life easier.

Canon, Sony, Pana, are you listening?

 

[Oleg 2]

After playing around with stereo microphones I realized that there is a major fault with prosumer video cameras: they should have a MS stereo microphone as their built-in mic.
Canon, Sony, Pana, are you listening?

no ;-)

 

[ScoobySounds]

I can see a flaw in the proposal.

A prosumer camera in a proffesional application will have a sound man.

however a prosumer camera in a consumer application the ms feature will undoubtably confuse the user. no 'consumer' is going to bother to collapse the sound in post to a mono signal so during shakey pans and tilts the stereo field will be all over the place.

 

[Noiz2]

I see two big flaws. The first is that there is no significant advantage to M/S ocer single point X/Y. It is very easy to switch one to the other and visa versa in post and M/S is not compatable with a lot of things ie listening with out a decoder box. The second big flaw is why would you be so "audio savy" as to want M/S and then trash your sound by useing an onboard mic??? If your using out board gear and your recording two tracks they can be X/Y or M/S the camera doesn't know or care. Of course there is the third biggie why are you recording stereo at all????? This is the camera mic, your not doing SFX BG's.

 

[Petrus]

How come it is a big flaw if there is no SIGNIFICANT advantage? How can it be a flaw at all?

For some reason built-in mics are stereo. I do not object at all, I would be happy with mono also. With MS we would have both stereo and usable hypercardioid (if camera makers would care a bit).

Sometimes I find myself recording a backup track using on-cam shotgun. If the built-in mics were good (why not?), I could use that. BUT only if I could get a front pointing mono signal from the b-i mic, not only the left channel! (or no signal at all like with XH-A1 with off-cam mics...) Of course it would be possible to collapse also XY signal to mono, but I have not yet found the on-camera switch which does this...

I think it is a positive thing to try get the most out of the system, even when using gear which is too pro compared to crew (quite often I have to work without a soundman). With MS you could have a cam with hypercardioid built in. Maybe even a decent one. No harm in suggesting this, is there?

 

[wabbit]

The main flaw I see with your proposal is that it assumes camera manufacturers give two thoughts to the camera's audio components. The on-camera mic you find on your DVX is relatively the same quality as the one on the Varicam and the one on the $500 DV cam. There are seriously cheap POS and if they could save a nickle per unit to give you an even crappier one they would. Audio components don't sell the cameras; resolution, DOF, and other sexy picture elements do.

Granted Panasonic did a better then average job with the DVX line but really we are still talking a nickle's worth of audio parts in a thousand $ cam.

RED seems to have actually listened to some customer input in designing their camera's audio but as with everything else about that camera, they are the exception to the rule.

Of course it never hurts to ask...

 

[Noiz2]

Because instead of improoving something they have they will spend the money on features that are of no significance. An on board Hyper is near usless. You are going to pick up all kinds of camera noise and if you can't "afford" a sound guy how are you going to deal with M/S in post???

Now you could be talking of an M/S mic that is decoded before being sent as "stereo" to the recorder but then you are nor really talking about M/S recording anymore.
If you don't care enough to get a sound man why should camera makers care?

I'm sorry if I sound harsh but you can't talk about using onboard mics and not having a sound man and claim to give half a though to sound quality.

You can mount a hyper and or shotgun to the camera so you can get as expensive an onboard mic as you want, go for it. Panasonic is not a quality mic manufacturer.

How come it is a big flaw if there is no SIGNIFICANT advantage? How can it be a flaw at all?

For some reason built-in mics are stereo. I do not object at all, I would be happy with mono also. With MS we would have both stereo and usable hypercardioid (if camera makers would care a bit).

Sometimes I find myself recording a backup track using on-cam shotgun. If the built-in mics were good (why not?), I could use that. BUT only if I could get a front pointing mono signal from the b-i mic, not only the left channel! (or no signal at all like with XH-A1 with off-cam mics...) Of course it would be possible to collapse also XY signal to mono, but I have not yet found the on-camera switch which does this...

I think it is a positive thing to try get the most out of the system, even when using gear which is too pro compared to crew (quite often I have to work without a soundman). With MS you could have a cam with hypercardioid built in. Maybe even a decent one. No harm in suggesting this, is there?