Why is the music in pro tv/movie mixes so much louder than everything else?

J

Josh Bass

Veteran
Hi guys. Always wondered, just now asking:

almost always when i watch a tv show or movie, and we're talking bonafied, professional, "hollywood" stuff here, any music (excluding radio playing in bg of scene) is generally much louder than the dialogue or sound effects. Like to te point where you have to ride the volume when the clothes auditioning montage comes on (shut you know you watch those kind of movies).

So is this:

the way it was intended to sound?

a result of the differences between what works in a theater vs at home, but using the same sound mix?

a mistake during mixing for dvd/tv/netflix

an end user error (i.e. simply using a tv's speakers vs pro sound system with compressor/5.1/whatever to listen to the audio)?

surely i cant be the only one who has experiences the "volume roller coaster?"
 
That is such a broad question, there is no single answer. Certainly we can identify examples of each of the different scenarios you enumerate, and several additional ones besides.

I sometimes wonder how much concern there is for creating a decent 2.0 (stereo) mixdown for people (likely the majority) who are viewing/listening on ordinary TVs.
 
That would be me. Seriously, any movie or tv show that has scenes where actual songs play (NOT talking about music beds here).

A recent example is "warm bodies". Has lots of well known pop/rock sounds on the soundtrack. Every time one came on, for me watching on an hdtv via dvd with the regular tv speakers, the songs were waaaay louder than than the rest of the soundtrack.

To put it another way, its exactly like how commercials are louder than the actual programming the way everyone always complains about.
 
In very basic terms it's mostly because a lot of films have mixes that are done for cinema systems with huge dynamic range and centre speakers to handle dialogue.

The same used to be prevalent with the pictures too with a cinema contrast print that was darker and they used to do a print that has less contrast for TV and DVD (VHS)

The problem comes when you are then listening on TV mostly in 2.0 and all that dynamic range can not be handled without the 10k watt speaker system to play it back on and the dialogue tends to get lost without a dedicated centre speaker one surround in collapsed to stereo.
 
ok that makes sense and is one of the things i thought i might be. that begsnthe question though: so why does stereo get the shaft? i realize a lot of folks must have 5.1 systems but many others must not. i figure there are far more hdtvs than there are nice sound systems.
 
This is a common complaint, it comes down to budgets for the remix, usually there's not enough money available or time allowed.
There was a guy here involved with booking 'Hollywood sound alikes' for movie remixes, these are actors who sound like the A rated stars.

On big features, they have the money for full and proper soundtrack mixdowns, and sometimes book sound alikes to subsitute lines in the script to aid the story, when they want to edit the movie down to shorten it.

On lesser productions, they just fold the 5:1 tracks down to stereo in one pass, resulting in the out of balance effects with the voices and music.
Our local Blockbuster says many ppl return their rented movie DVDs with exactly the OPs complaints.

Cheers.
 
It's all down to $$$$$$ and as said they usually just down-mix a 5.1 or 7.1 to stereo so all the dynamics are as per theatre playback and not TV.

They tend to use all the 90db + dynamic range for effect in the cinema but TV only needs around 10-20 db of dynamic range.
 
Well I don't know what kind of "hollywood" films you guys have worked on but in the 30 - 300 mill range right after the final mix is finished we do a week or so of "versions" that are designed for other formats like a TV mix and a DVD mix and a DM&E for dubing. Often there is also a new "cut" for airlines and such.

The only "sound alikes" I have ever heard of being used was once to scare the original actors into doing ADR on a film and for the odd word change in TV and airline versions (swapping out swearwords for stupid similar sounding words) - though often those are done when and if any original ADR was done IF we know there will be a TV version.

Since DVD's and 5.1 broadcast are the norm now I suspect that folks are not spending a lot of time on the stereo mix.
But I suspect your problem is that you are not setting up the DVD player properly. The hint for me is that Music is coming out particularly loud when dialog is playing. So I suspect you are feeding the L & R of the 5.1 mix to your TV and not the stereo mix down, or the DVD box is doing the mix down and it's screwing it up.

Music that is not an FX (coming from a radio on the set) is going to be dominant in the front L&R. Dialog is going to be center and probably has some spill on the DVD to the L&R, FX will be all over. So if you are listening to just the L&R of the 5.1 mix then dialog is going to be way down FX will vary and music will be loud.

So I would make sure you are sending the TV the stereo mix not the 5.1 and if there isn't a stereo mix option on the DVD then make sure the DVD is doing a mix down to stereo.

And no other than big actilon scenes and club scenes music is not intentionally mix louder than dialog. Dialog is king, with very few exceptions.
 
Noiz2 is right. TV and players often default to some pretty horrible settings out of the box. I'm always amazed at how many media pros I visit and they have the weirdest settings on their TVs and players. I once had the DP, Director, and Producer all on a conference call because the DVD test disc I had made "looked pixelated and stretched" on their new HDTVs. All three of these guys had their DVD players connected with the RCA cables and players still set to playback at 4:3, so they then hit the zoom button on their TVs.
Oh yeah...if you're on a Mac, check the preferences on DVD Player. Check the box next to "Disable Dolby dynamic range compression" unless you really want a couple seconds of low volume after every loud sound when you're watching a DVD.
 
+1. Josh you should double check all your system settings first.

The guy I'm referring to works on remixes for all the worlds airlines, there's a whole lot of parameters there and it starts with deleting the violence,
bad language and sex to get an airline rating. If there's any doubt or questions at all, out it comes, there's no time to play around.

That's where his sound-alike actors come in, when the story needs editing.

And some A rated movies might get 2 or 3 versions to suit various religions or customs. Yep dialogue is king, depending on the schedule and workload, sometimes they won't worry about the 5 or 7:1 mainly use the front stereo tracks. The airline movie biz far outweighs the consumer DVD biz.

Cheers.
 
I've never had this issue with music, but I hate the volume roller coaster when it comes to sound effects. Some movies will have the dialogue quiet, and you'll have the volume turned up to hear it, then all of a sudden, without warning, some big action sequence starts and it's REALLY LOUD. One movie like this that sticks out in my mind is Black Hawk Down...probably because it woke up my son (back when he was a baby).

This drives me nuts. I've been tempted to get a compressor and put it between my dvd player and my stereo system (no, I do not have 5.1 surround).
 
What you say about dvds make sense, however even watching movies on netflix streaming introduces the same issues! And i swear ive seen it on tv shows (cant think of any at the moment). For instance when sitcome use those little stings to transition between scenes that music will be bonkers loud.
 
Josh I think what you are speaking of mainly is a creative decision to convey a "feeling" that the song brings up to emphasize the scene, and more than likely there is usually no dialog during this scene of the film.
 
This is a common complaint that is discussed on many forums. Noiz' response is in line with most other responses on the other forums.
 
perhaps by some, but if you look at most movies that use music over an action montage this is usually the reasoning behind it, just remember the rocky theme as he is practicing and getting ready for the big fight and running up the stairs.. how bad would that sux without the now famous music played loudly over the sequence? or on Karate Kid as he is going thru the tournament kicking but and yes that dumb song plays fairly loudly over the sequence.

Im guessing its those types of loud music passages you speak of?

And I do agree with Noiz about the settings usually not optimized.
 
I understand the incorrect set up of most home sound systems is to blame but I have experienced this in theaters as well. Just about everyone I know feels the jumps in volume levels between inaudible whispers to explosions that shake my house are unnecessary, when you live in tight quarters with your neighbors it's not as welcome as it would be in a large suburban home. Plus I have to imagine my ear drums are taking the brunt of it, which can not be good. I just wish the norm was to maintain volume level for whispers and normal dialogue as well as bringing the level of music, explosions and gunshots back down to a more comparable level.
 
Well films are mixed by ear so IF everything is set up correctly then you just don't like what the director liked.

BTW being in a theatre is no guarantee that the system is set up correctly.

The music VS dialog could be explained by a setup but big dynamic range is in the mix. Or your ears. If your hearing is going (and it happens to all of us eventually) dialog intelligibility will get dicey but things with a lot of low end will come through fine. The reverse will happen if the mixers/ director is hard of hearing. And sometimes it's just a really bad mix. The last is usually the directors fault, most mixers will do at least a decent job, but some directors will get in there and really trash it. Reference "Public Enemies". Michael Mann is the deaf (literally in one ear) director who made that films sound track a mess.

Ironically he also produced "Luck" which had an amazing sound track.
 
Noiz2 said:
Well films are mixed by ear so IF everything is set up correctly then you just don't like what the director liked.

BTW being in a theatre is no guarantee that the system is set up correctly.
Click to expand...

Bingo!

Many times mixes start in smaller non-certified, but correctly setup rooms, but then are transferred to a certified mix stage for Dolby.
 
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