OTHER: why is it so difficult to do what appears simple?

[paulears]

I've got some new jobs coming up this year with previously audio only recordings - not really important for this post, but it is choirs and acoustic live performances in churches, and other nice spaces.

Can I provide video with the sound recording? Yes - looking at the piles of gear in the studio, I think I can. And will we be able to live stream too maybe? Er, yes, we probably can. To be fair I then figured the 'we will get back to you' wouldn't happen and I carried on - but it has firmed up into some nice jobs. My studio is built around JVC 750 cameras - I have been a fan for years, my first ⅓" JVC being in the mid 90's - a 500, shooting to DV.

The studio uses Blackmagic switchers and control surfaces, hyperdecks and a rarely used Blackmagic web streamer. They all work fine in 1080, and have really nice images that work for me. I have an original Ursa 4K and Ursa Broadcast (original one) - but to be honest, I've dry hired them a bit and used them myself on a few jobs.

My forthcoming jobs require 2 cameras, and perhaps a 3rd locked off - on the centre line for a very wide shot, so my thoughts were to not dismantle any of the studio stuff - but if I need more cameras, I could use the 3 JVC 750's - not 4K, but for many things HD is fine.

I got some stuff out of the store and started to assemble a wheeled 19" rack - trundle it in, connect up and away we go. A nice 19" rack monitor for the multi-view, then an ATEM 2 M/E switcher 4K some hyperdecks, a rack audio mixer, comms unit and the web streaming gizmo. Add a network switch and some in/out panes and done.

This is where the issues started - silly ones. Adding the two blackmagic cameras I could set the system standard on the switcher (the 2M/E I have requires all inputs to be the same - doesn't convert or scale. Both cams come up on the multiview. I added one JVC. Wrong output. I can get the two Ursas - the 4K and the Broadcast to be the same, but that setting won't allow the JVC to join the party. I can have the Ursa 4K and the JVC - but then the Broadcast won't join in. I tried every switcher setting and every camera setting but could not get 3!

I've found a solution - run the Broadcast through a Blackmagic HD converter - this allows 108050i to be selected on switcher, Ursa 4K, JVC 750 the hyperdecks and with the converter the Broadcast can join in. I can't believe the Broadcast does not have the same output standards as the 4K? Very odd. I now have one camera coming in by HDMI - the longshot one - which hopefully can connect with an HDMI fiber cable to my one HDMI input, then up to 5 cameras. More than I will need to be honest, because extra people to operate them are expensive for the clients.

The web presenter in fairness, won't be much use - access to fast internet at venues is limited and 5G is rarely more than 1 bar, so probably unusable, but the system should be up and running soon - once parts and bits and pieces start to roll in.

There is a part two problem. I'm going to have to do some work on the blackmagic cameras as the video output by comparison is nowhere near the JVCs so custom LUTs to make them a bit more contrasty and saturated are the way forward I guess.

 

[Peter C.]

One broad piece of advice is to find out what's important to the client and how the streaming broadcast fits in. It could be getting access to the venues WIFI or asking them to get a tech to set that up might be more important because it's the best way to achieve a stable and dependable stream. Again if the stream component is important to them or just an add on. Sometimes we as videographers make it more complex than it needs to be.

 

[paulears]

Thanks Peter - internet is not wonderful. One of the venues I work at regularly is running the entire place on service that means facetime, zoom and even watching youtube is impossible - they have a big LED screen, and it uses a web interface to upload new video files and it's really awful. Lots of rural churches don't actually have internet connection at all, and with the very sparse 5G coverage, I've never had much success. If I could generate sufficient funds, bonding devices could be workable, just too expensive for me at present. The clients don't have a 'need' for it, so it's simply nice to have from their perspective. The end product usually pops up on YouTube.

 

[Peter C.]

If that's the case then I'd go with a hot spot and low resolution no more than 720p and one camera feed to it. The multi cam could be reserved for the produced video if its causing you too many issues.

I had a church hire me to film and stream their services they eventually ended up getting permanently mounted PTZ camera allowing them to stream without much cost. Getting wifi and a streaming setup can benefit even small churches as many older people with health conditions can't physically attend.

 

[Tom Roper]

Paul, your Blackmagic Design technical questions will be more thoroughly answered on the Blackmagic Design forum website.

 

[Tim Peck]

You could maybe use a Starlink kit with a roaming subscription.
It's added expense, not guaranteed to work in all environments and I guess your giving money to Musk - but it is a possible solution.
They do offer short term subscriptions and you can pick up second hand units.
I was asked by someone to livestream a funeral from a local church earlier this year. They had no internet and the 5G mobile signal was not reliable. I considered asking the school next door if we could connect to their internet for a fee but they were closed for holidays.
After testing the starlink signal strength via their mobile app I found it was good but still a bit intermittent, as the church was located in a steep valley. I told the client I didn't think it was worth the risk of a broken broadcast and asked them f it would be acceptable to upload an edit of the service as quickly as possible after the event - and they were fine with that.
I can understand the appeal of a live broadcast but a small delay in uploading an event may not amount to a hill of beans.
Sorry - too much information but it might be worth checking out Starlink - could well work for you.
One thing is - you need to get a unit that accommodates a long ethernet extension - from memory they don't all have that option.

 

[paulears]

Thanks - the price point between what they ant and what is achievable for the budget is always a pain - I think you are right in accepting the short delay - and to be fair it would also allow some edits too?

Made some good progress today - both blackmagic cameras can be made very similar to the JVC image within the ATEM. just increasing saturation and contrast seems to work pretty well. More experiments tomorrow. Just need to check the ability to do a few things. Annoyingly the settings that allow everything to work, mean my older ATEM switcher cannot accept that as a valid input. Oh well - that's not actually important, but would have been useful.

I did wonder about the dedicated Blackmagic forum, but figured that the members here tend to be quite honest and blunt - which is useful.

 

[CharlesPapert]

It was definitely the case that older switchers required all cameras to be outputting the same signal (and that format needed to be selected in the switcher software, whereas newer versions had individual input format processing. Did you determine if yours was one of the former, which is why it was having trouble? The thing you mentioned where any two of the cameras would work fine while adding the third was problematic was a bit baffling to understand.

 

[paulears]

Thanks Charles - I'm looking at two blackmagic different models, plus the JVCs. They all have versions of output.The ATEM 2M/E is not the constellation version so does not have conversion available on individual inputs. So I am looking at 1080 at 25 and 50 and variations of interlaced and progressive. The two Ursa variants don't both do quite the same output versions - I have eventually found just one Blackmagic setting available on both that matches one in the JVC 1080/50i - so I can now switch 2 BM and my 3 JVC - annoyingly I then discovered this is not one of the available combinations on an older ATEM switcher. Not a major annoyance, but I guess I cannot have everything!

My next thing to experiment with is to find out if I can record on the two Ursa's in 4K, but still output the successful format from the HD-SDI out. I probably should write down the successful combination settings.

 

[CharlesPapert]

Golly, that is a lot! I still have an absurd number of Decimator MD-HX's for working with older ATEM's to convert signals to the same format, which I don't really need any more, but good to still have around. Such a handy box!

 

[paulears]

Today things are coming together - things starting to talk to each other. However - I've filled the space and have lost count of the times I have tripped over cables at knee height.