Why I DON'T like 4k. The other side of the story.

S

Stab

Well-known member
Mind you, this is my viewpoint about 4k on a consumer / prosumer level which is 99% of the people on this planet and maybe 75% of this forum.
Here we go.

I hate this 4K 'revolution' that is about to be unleashed on us. Manufacturers are out of ideas how to squeeze more money from us in the long term, so they shove 4K through our throats. Of course, after the 1st telephones and handycams start to shoot 4K, along will come 4K televisions, monitors and the like.

99% of all the people I know still have a 21 inch or smaller computer monitor with 1920x1080, but mostly even less. Almost everyone watches their series and movies on their 15" laptops or computer screens. Heck some people even watch movies on their phones...
Over the last 2-3 years, almost everyone has upgraded their old chunky televisions to huge 40-50" LED, flatscreen TV's.
Can't we just see that 'we are there' yet? Consumers don't need more than this. And the only thing we, as (prosumer) filmmakers, need is better 1080p with real 1080p resolution, higher DR and better colors and codecs.

My 42" Full HD TV is so damn sharp and colorful. Everyone who sees it for the 1st time says how nice it is. Also, I have never heard anyone after a visit to the cinema and watching a film on a 30 meter wide screen, shot on a 2K Alexa say 'Nice movie, but Leonardo was not sharp enough'. Furthermore, even in my country (the Netherlands) there's only a couple of channels broadcasted in HD (and I don't even think its 1080p). Most channels aren't even HD in the first place because it's simply to expensive to broadcast.

They created a problem that doesn't exist, and now we all want it. And why not, it will be relatively cheap to get it. I don't know if 1080p camera's will become obsolete soon. I hope not. It depends on how film makers and broadcasters deal with it. I hope it will be 'rejected', just like happened to 3D.

The problem is that 4K will become the new 'Megapixel'. People that have no knowledge about image quality throw these terms around like it means everything. People will ask me in the near future if I can shoot their wedding in 4k, because uncle Harry bought a 4k camcorder for $500. Then we should be able to shoot 4k as well, right?

And there we go. Upgrading our camera's, our storage devices, our computers, our screens, our websites. All because of a problem that didn't exist in the 1st place.
And the funniest part? Our clients will watch our 4k produced film on their 15 inch 1366x768 screen.

I am absolutely not against 'change' or 'progress' by the way, but I would like to have real progress. Which would be cheap, real 1080p resolution, 10 bit 4:4:4, prores shooting camera's in a good form factor body with all the necesarry tools. But hey, 'they' won't give it to us because then we're done. Nobody would ever need a new camera, until it breaks down. So what do they do? They play on our emotions and create a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. And people will want it. And I will be 'forced' to adapt. That is the problem.

What do you guys think?
 
What I think is I want the best possible approximation of what the eye can perceive. I don't give a s*%t about what manufacturers are trying to push down consumers throats as long as it gets better and better. So you have to buy new gear to keep abreast of Uncle Henry? You should be miles ahead of Uncle Henry without him forcing it on you. There is no conspiracy. Humans are hard wired to pursue novelty. Get over demanding that people and artists say "good enough". There is no historical evidence of humans on the species level ever being satisfied.
 
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4K distribution WILL eventually be widespread, but it will take some time. 5-7 years, imo.

Unlike 3d, you won't need special glasses.

And by the time it is widespread, 4k tvs will be about the same price as current hd tvs.

But it IS coming.

That doesn't mean your current computer system or hd cameras is useless. Far from it.

By the time 4k is popular, you will probably be in the market for a new camera and computer system anyway, and they will both be faster and cheaper.

I don't see a need for the angst.
 
The other issue with 4k is people are actively roughing up the 4k so it isn't so sharp. So you have to shoot this incredibly detailed image, which then looks a tad harsh especially on the human face, so then you need to add just the right touch of grain or blur to soften it a bit, or shoot with a filter that will soften it a bit, or sometimes a combination of both. It is just a bit ironic that you need to shoot something tack sharp to the point it's not pleasant to look at, and then soften it up a bit.

Here's the plus side. People might argue against me, but I honestly think we're approaching the wall with 4k. Yes, we know it's possible to shoot 5k, 8k, and more K. But the human eye is not a microscope. We're fast approaching the limits of human vision, ESPECIALLY when it comes to home entertainment.

To get full use out of 8k you need a house of at least 5,000 square feet so you can make a big enough screen to actually see the difference, so you can sit 100 feet away from it. Why would you do that?

I think we're getting to the point that the only thing you will get with more K is the ability to make bigger screens, so big that they are to big for your living room, like you couldn't get them through the front door. So I honestly do think there's going to be a pause at 4k and the improvements will be in other areas besides K.

I"m not interested in 4k. I want XLR inputs and built in ND filters. I would definitely take 2k raw with those features.
 
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Stab said:
so they shove 4K through our throats.
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what are you on about? it seems like the 4K police came by and broke your legs.

Nothings being shoved down your throat, new technology is just being made available to you, you can buy into it or not. If sony wanted to shove it down your throat, they would have just come out with the 4k ax100 and not the exactly identical but 1080 only, cheaper cx900.

I'm no 4K fan either, but i'm still keeping an eye out for when i'll make the switch, because yes it will happen. this is not 3d, this is image resolution. 1080 already looks great, and yes 4k can only be appreciated under certain viewing conditions, but 4k isn't truely beyond our vision capabilities, so it will eventually take over. it's maybe a 15-30% perceived visual 'improvement' (im sure plenty would argue that number) But i doubt we'll be going past 4k for mainstream, it's heavy diminishing returns past that for display formats.

And since you specified you're talking about the consumer market.... just what is being pushed at you? i can still count the number of currently available 4k consumer cameras on one hand, meanwhile you have hundreds of choices in consumer 1080 cameras.

switch to tea, it's done wonders to me ;)
 
Stab said:
What do you guys think?
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I'm with you, brother. Probably close to 100%. No need to switch to tea or decaf. :beer:

I'm 42 years old. For years and years and years I grew up with and watched standard definition TV. It worked perfectly fine. It was accepted by the masses. Once we hit the HD benchmark (which I totally love, for the record) it seems like tech has been ramping up incrementally. And technology is wonderful and great and all that crap.... It's been discussed to death on these boards, I'm not going to get into it....you've already hit on the *need* for new cameras, computers, editing systems, storage, etc. Yeah, no one is "forcing you" to upgrade, but still.....

My 42" Full HD TV is so damn sharp and colorful.
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Amen. Done & done.

It matters to many on these boards, but as far as my TV viewing experience & workflow goes......1080 is great and good enough for me. 4K will bring nothing to the table for me. Just my opinion.
 
"I"m not interested in 4k. I want XLR inputs and built in ND filters. I would definitely take 2k raw with those features."

A Canon C500 with Odyssey q7 has just what you want, but you'll have to live with the 4k features. I'll bet they sneak up on you.
 
Darren Levine said:
what are you on about? it seems like the 4K police came by and broke your legs.

Nothings being shoved down your throat, new technology is just being made available to you, you can buy into it or not. If sony wanted to shove it down your throat, they would have just come out with the 4k ax100 and not the exactly identical but 1080 only, cheaper cx900.

I'm no 4K fan either, but i'm still keeping an eye out for when i'll make the switch, because yes it will happen. this is not 3d, this is image resolution. 1080 already looks great, and yes 4k can only be appreciated under certain viewing conditions, but 4k isn't truely beyond our vision capabilities, so it will eventually take over. it's maybe a 15-30% perceived visual 'improvement' (im sure plenty would argue that number) But i doubt we'll be going past 4k for mainstream, it's heavy diminishing returns past that for display formats.

And since you specified you're talking about the consumer market.... just what is being pushed at you? i can still count the number of currently available 4k consumer cameras on one hand, meanwhile you have hundreds of choices in consumer 1080 cameras.

switch to tea, it's done wonders to me ;)
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It is being shoved down my throat. Not yet, but soon it will be. And not by the manufacturers directly, but indirectly by my customers. In short while, 'people' will demand 4k. Just as they demand 1080p now. Nobody is going to film a company film, commercial or wedding with an old SD DV camera, right? And when every phone and consumer camera starts to shoot 4k, which I expect in a year or 2 max, it will be the new standard. And like my example, customers will start demanding it. Not because they actually see the difference on their viewing equipment, but 'because it is 4K'. And it is the new standard of IQ. And all the camera's, phones, camcorders and TV's will have a nice shiny '4k resolution' logo on it. At the same time, the video guys who advertise their producs / services as 'we shoot with the new 4K techology so you get the sharpest image possible for the same price!', will simply get customers because they upgraded. Heck, I even used the term 'Full HD' in many of my business offers.

If that's not a huge incentive to upgrade, then I don't know what is. I'm not talking Hollywood here (yet), but everyone who shoots for non technical clients (i.e. weddings & corporate stuff) will have to deal with this.
 
I can see where you're getting overwhelmed, but i have to ask... are you against advancement altogether? you believe it'll be upwards of 2 years for 4k to be all over the place, you really expect to not have to upgrade in upwards of 2 years? are an appreciable number of your clients actually asking for 4k? maybe you've just got more picky clients than i do, for weddings/corporate/similars, i've yet to have a single one even ask what specific format or resolution im filming in, and they're thrilled when they see the 720 vimeo pre-finals.

But as i understand it, you're frustrated that manufacturers are pushing 4k to consumers, and in turn your customers, the consumers, will demand it of you, and hence it's being shoved down your throat. ya?

Thats just the way it's always worked in a technical field. manufacturers have sell things to stay in business.

but HD has been in play for close to a decade, 4k was introduced in 2007, we're now in 2014, do you not think it a reasonable. heck not even a slow pace of advancement?
 
Stab said:
It is being shoved down my throat. Not yet, but soon it will be. And not by the manufacturers directly, but indirectly by my customers.
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Then you can either tell those customers to go elsewhere or jump aboard the 4k train.

None of my clients are asking "yet" for a 4k deliverable.

But I am ready and willing to do it once I am asked.

As a service provider and business owner, the more I say "yup, I can do that." the better my business does.
 
In short while, 'people' will demand 4k. Just as they demand 1080p now.
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First off, I haven't had any requests for 4K deliverables. Just sayin' that up front.....

I'm not against 4K (or any K) technology for acquiring/finishing footage. I'm not in film production or high-end TV or whatever the call for 4K is. Technology = wonderful. Go forth and create all the awesome films & shows that you do.

Like the OP, my contention is that I feel it is (or will be soon) shoved in the face of the public, thus changing the game for us prosumer/medium level video guys. Most people I know don't even have a blu-ray player or care about screen resolution. Yes, they buy whatever TV is currently on sale at Costco or Best Buy w/o much consideration. I'm not ready for the hassle ($$) of a complete change in my TV viewing....we just did HD a few years ago.

I feel 4K for the public IS a cash-grab. (4k phones....please, gimme a break) The change-up of TV delivery continues to come at us at a rapid pace when I feel that, yes, 1080 is "good enough" right now. I don't care about man's eternal quest for greatness. Can't us average folks just enjoy the current resolution for like another 10-15 years?

As I said, I don't want to continually have to purchase new cameras, editing systems, storage, ect when the tools & deliverables are fine for my clients right now.

8-10 years ago I sang the praises 24p and HD to my reluctant senior co-workers. Now I'm the old, unhip guy who's afraid of change. Go figure. :huh:
 
Decades ago, we could buy expensive cameras and sit on the technology for YEARS, recouping the investment. BetaSP was a standard, constant format for over 10 years. If you bought a BetaSP rig in 1986, you could still be making a living off it in 2005.

That simply doesn't exist anymore. The closest we've come would be the DVX, HVX, and EX1, those probably delivered a good five-year lifespan.

Today, you absolutely have to roll with whatever the client demands, and the client's demands change constantly based on whatever fad or fashion the ad agencies are buying into. For a couple of years there, if you didn't have a "Red", you didn't get the job -- at all. One division of Panasonic was shooting a commercial for the VariCam 3700, and the ad agency tried hard to talk them into shooting it on a Red(!) IIRC, that ad agency got replaced, but still, the force was strong with that one. Then we had the DSLR phase, where it was practically required that everything be shot on a 5D. Soon, it will be demanded that everything be 4K. After that, it will be 8K. And who knows what after that.

If you want to be in the business, you have to give your clients what they ask for. Whether you agree or not, if they've drunk the kool-aid and they've been told "it must be shot on a Red Dragon", you have to find a way to get a Red Dragon. If, next year, they all flop over to demanding BlackMagic 4K, well, it's just a cost of doing business in the 2010's, you have to keep current with whatever it is that they want.

If you're dealing with end consumers instead of agencies (such as weddings), it can be different -- many end consumers won't know or care what you shoot on, just so long as they like your work. But if it gets to the point where they're asking for 4K, why not give it to them? Yes it'll cost you more to have to go out and replace your camera, but, as said before, that's a cost of doing business in the hyper-short-attention-span 2010's.
 
It's a nice sum up Barry, but that's exactly the point I am against. 'They' are fixing things now which aren't broken. Of course technological advancement is good. If there was a camera tomorrow that could shoot 50 stops of DR, that would be awesome. The point is that 4K is not necesarry for the end consumer, which is still watching movies on a 15 inch SD laptop screen, but will demand 4K because it is for sale everywhere on the cheap.

And yes, you're right, it won't take long before I have to upgrade everything to be '4k-ready' but I think it's a waste. My 1080p productions aren't even watched in 1080p most of the time... Besides that, I like the aestethics of the resolution of current camera's. Alexa's footage is pretty perfect if you'd ask me.

I guess I'm just ranting also because I saw the documentary 'Home' yesterday. We're already there, is my point. We have ****ing 50 inch flatscreens in our house for 300$. We are ruining the world with our everlasting quest for growth. Out goes my perfectly fine computer, monitor, camera, sd cards, etc, because we apparently need 4K. Which isn't true.
We need better 1080p, that is for sure. But that doesn't make any money for the manufacturers. So what they will do, is release shitty 4k camera's. Year by year a small, but just significant enough upgrade of previous year's model and there we go again.

Just bored of it :)
 
Dude, Get off the "they" stuff. Nobody gives a ****. People are always changing stuff. You do have more than one shirt?
 
Please keep it civil.

There's some truth in your first post, however as Barry so eloquently put it
if they've drunk the kool-aid...
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I'd certainly stop giving it too much thought until it becomes a real world issue for you.
 
lightstrum said:
Dude, Get off the "they" stuff. Nobody gives a s*%t. People are always changing stuff. You do have more than one shirt?
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Actually, I kinda give a s*%t, especially in regards to the waste factor the OP just brought up. Nice analogy, but a shirt isn't the same as a 5, 10 or 25k camera.
EDIT: LOL, or a $40,000 Samsung TV
 
This is gonna make me sound like a dick to some people, but I remember the SD days. And same stupid argument from SD to HD, now HD to 4k. Things change for the best, get over it. If you don't keep up with the times. Then its your loss and you have yourself to blame. So stop complaining while the rest is upgrading. 4K is here to stay, its not going anywhere besides your home very soon. If you don't like it, fine. Have fun with your crappy rec 709 over sharpened 1080p tv and camera. I'll be watching my 4K tv and shooting 6K on my camera.
 
Joncarr said:
Things change for the best, get over it. If you don't keep up with the times. Then its your loss and you have yourself to blame. So stop complaining while the rest is upgrading. 4K is here to stay, its not going anywhere besides your home very soon.
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I'd put that at about right.
 
I see where the op is coming from. Most other upgrades in the industry have added some real world value, whereas there is little value in 4k other than in special circumstances. It seems like the industry is running out of ways to generate new revenue. And this backlash, while small now, will certainly grow when 8k starts being heavily marketed.
 
I find this discussion especially interesting and as a former ikegami/betacam owner in the sd days I now realize how convenient it was back then camera wise. However my first betacam cost as much as five EOS 1d's. So I like progress and will buy an entry level 4k from Sony, the PXW-Z100. Like many I moved from the bulky Betacam to the filmic DVX to an HMC 150 and then GH1/2 and then to an fs100 and back to a bulky rig and nex 7. I wish I could get five years out of a camera! Have to say I am totally done with rigs that need a case the size of my Smart car and keeping a hex wrench in every pocket.
i shoot a variety of stuff and some with my gear and some for tv stations with their gear. The camera I was shooting with today is a 35mbps Sony 320. Not exactly killer 1080 but the signal most folks are watch including this station looks ok on their Vizio 42. With the broadcast bandwidth issues I think 4k will be not coming to a station near you soon, but and with the multiple of other platforms available it is here and here to stay. In the meantime I kinda like the idea of shooting 4k interviews and being able to change framing in HD with no loss. Now if the price of the cards would start to go down faster...
 
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