why edit at 24p (for DVD) ??? 60i OK rite?

[nycineaste]

My eventual goal for next year is to make an 80-90 minutish feature length DVD movie, shooting with the DVX100A.

Is there any advantage to editing on a 24p timeline? I thought that it's on the tape in 60i form, and that the DVD player (and/or TV?) does the reverse pulldown (?) so theres no reason to edit on a 24P timeline and burn (true) 24P to DVD unless your doing so for the extra space (fit more in the DVD- my flick will only be 80 minutish), and of course if youre eventually going out to film which I sure as heck am not. Im happy editing on 60i timeline and outputting to DVD at 60i, I still get the 24P look rite?

theres probably tons of misinformation in the above statements.

thanks a million

 

[David Jimerson]

This is covered in detail, with illustrations, in the 24p & Frame Rates tutorial (my sig). These questions are the exact reasons I created it.

You want to edit and export as 24p and make a 24p DVD. The DVD will be 24p, not 60i. The player will add pulldown to make it 60i if it's playing to a 60i TV. Otherwise, if it's a progressive-scan player, it'll play as progressive to a progressive TV. You want this. All but the oldest commercial DVDs do it this way.

With the DVX100, the footage is recorded in 60i stream, because pulldown is added at recording, but you want to remove pulldown for edit.

You want to edit 24p material on a 24p timeline, unless you can't. And the only reason you can't is if your NLE doesn't let you. You want to do this because you don't want nterlacing when there's no reason to have it (interlacing = awful, always), and for a host of other reasons, including making cuts on clean 24p frame lines and making sure your animations, transitions, etc. are ALSO 24p and match the motion of your footage. Even if you export as 60i, you still want to edit as 24p.



Shoot 24p>Edit as 24p, no matter how you're going to export.

Export as 24p unless you absolutely need 60i. And there's almost no reason anymore that you'll need to export as 60i.

 

[chungdha]

I abandoned the 24P a long time ago , useless unless you only intend to show it online. I film 25p Pal as that is mostly required for the TV if even need to be shown on a TV channel and PAL coded DVD players has no problem showing it. Also cause I feel 24p looks way to choppy, I actually like 30P even 60P looks like as the faster frame rated makes camera shakes look smoother. I have when I jump from 60p to 24P and can notice how crazy choppy 24P is. As 24P is something from the film ages to keep the cost low as most camera made had 12p 18p 24p 32p and mostly old movies silent movies or super8 movies see more choppy movements as you can see the 18 or some even have 12p to use less film to keep the cost less or able to film for a longer time. With digital you don't need to do this, I could film 30P and drop out frames for PAL but I rather like to able to film 60P and slow down to 25p and have few more extra frames for slomotion. But have to say if you work for any big brand or companies which expect broadcast usable videos you need to ask them for the specs and not just film 24p cause you like it.

 

[David Jimerson]

I abandoned the 24P a long time ago , useless unless you only intend to show it online. I film 25p Pal as that is mostly required for the TV if even need to be shown on a TV channel and PAL coded DVD players has no problem showing it.

You SHOULD be using 25p where you are (Europe), because that's your standard -- 50 Hz. Viewing 24p on a 25p/50 Hz screen, as you have, can be problematic.

Also cause I feel 24p looks way to choppy, I actually like 30P even 60P looks like as the faster frame rated makes camera shakes look smoother. I have when I jump from 60p to 24P and can notice how crazy choppy 24P is. As 24P is something from the film ages to keep the cost low as most camera made had 12p 18p 24p 32p and mostly old movies silent movies or super8 movies see more choppy movements as you can see the 18 or some even have 12p to use less film to keep the cost less or able to film for a longer time. With digital you don't need to do this, I could film 30P and drop out frames for PAL but I rather like to able to film 60P and slow down to 25p and have few more extra frames for slomotion.

As for the smoothness of faster frame rates vs. 24 fps, that's a matter of personal preference and of what serves the project. Faster frame rates look more live; slower frame rates look more fictional. Choose what works for you. It's about art, not technical specs.

But have to say if you work for any big brand or companies which expect broadcast usable videos you need to ask them for the specs and not just film 24p cause you like it.

Broadcast specs don't really have anything to do with your frame rate choice. Your frame rate choice is artistic; if you think it's right for your project, then it's what you should use. You can shoot the frame rate of your choice and deliver it however they need it.

 

[nycineaste]

sold. cha-ching.


==========================

UPDATE/PLUG:

Great stuff, saved me more months of headache-inducing research and trial-and-error. Can now delete the scrappy mess of confusing text-information I collected on the subject from countless forums, and can get rid of the crappy "ghost frames" on my post-deinterlaced, progresively shot footage.

Thanks!

 

[nycineaste]

shot some vacation stuff 24P normal on a dvx100a before i knew better, trying to make a DVD and output for web, my vegas-home studio only lets me use a 60i timeline with the 24p normal footage. Im going to upgrade before it comes time to make a (real) movie

just wondering:

If I de-interlace 29.976 NTSC (actually 60i) video for web output, am I creating a 60P file or an actual 30P file (frame rate)?

I test-burned this file to DVD and it looked fine, no interlace artifacts or ghosting (that I noticed). What the hell did I burn to DVD? Im guessing it Must've been a 60i file with de-interlaced motion samples (there were no interlace artifacts playing the file on the PC), since NTSC DVD wont burn actual 30P (30 frames) ??? Is there such a thing as 60i /29.976 thats been deinterlaced ? Maybe thats obvious since thats what i made. Again, this file worked fine on both PC, and DVD, Im (almost) sure I didnt burn an interlaced 60i file to DVD.

aaarrrrggggg my brain hurts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

filmmaking arrrrgggg why you hurt so bad.

Im reaching this bizarre no mans land of diminishing returns learning this stuff, because you never know what someones actualy reffering to when they use the terms.

 

[David Jimerson]

shot some vacation stuff 24P normal on a dvx100a before i knew better, trying to make a DVD and output for web, my vegas-home studio only lets me use a 60i timeline with the 24p normal footage. Im going to upgrade before it comes time to make a (real) movie

Yeah, DVX100 + 24p (advanced OR standard) + Vegas Pro is an outstanding combination. Vegas Studio is one of those NLEs which won't remove pulldown, so you can't edit the footage as 24p and you should shoot 24p standard if you're going to use it. You definitely do want to upgrade before your feature.

Good news is, anything you've shot and captured up to this point can still be used in Vegas Pro, and Vegas Pro will still remove the pulldown and let you edit as 24p. No re-capturing necessary.

just wondering:

If I de-interlace 29.976 NTSC (actually 60i) video for web output, am I creating a 60P file or an actual 30P file?

Could be either, depending on how you do it. If you disable any frame blending, making sure you are interpolating each field into a full frame, and then render as 60p, it should be 60p.

If you do the same but render as 30p, it'll be 30p (dropping every other field). Being for web, this is probably what you're going to do. Not too many web video hosts will display at 60p, and those which will aren't free.

 

[David Jimerson]

UPDATE/PLUG:

Great stuff, saved me more months of headache-inducing research and trial-and-error. Can now delete the scrappy mess of confusing text-information I collected on the subject from countless forums, and can get rid of the crappy "ghost frames" on my post-deinterlaced, progresively shot footage.

Thanks!

Great! Glad it was helpful for you. So many people ask the same questions as you did, and there's so much bad information out there (and it gets repeated here at DVXuser a lot), it only made sense to create it.

 

[nycineaste]

yeah, I still have a lot to figure out on this subject but the tutorial video was still worth the buy since it gave me the language to think about it in the most accurate way (motion samples vs. refresh rate, etc)... Its amazing to watch people on the forums discussing the topic and yet they are really not at all sure they are even refferring to the same things, now I can seperate fact from fiction a lil better. Video is a complex subject.

 

[David Jimerson]

I test-burned this file to DVD and it looked fine, no interlace artifacts or ghosting (that I noticed). What the hell did I burn to DVD? Im guessing it Must've been a 60i file with de-interlaced motion samples (there were no interlace artifacts playing the file on the PC), since NTSC DVD wont burn actual 30P (30 frames) ??? Is there such a thing as 60i /29.976 thats been deinterlaced ? Maybe thats obvious since thats what i made. Again, this file worked fine on both PC, and DVD, Im (almost) sure I didnt burn an interlaced 60i file to DVD.

I missed this --

You burned a 60i DVD. But if the underlying file was 30p, then all field pairs will be from the same frame and you won't see interlace artifacts (because both fields being displayed simultaneously are from the same frame). It's one motion sample, not two smashed together.

 

[nycineaste]

Thanks, that's what I eventually thought--- I made a 30P file for web then the mpeg encoder made a 60i file from this 30P file.

Im guessing somewhere along the line I'm losing resolution or introducing some uneven/stuttery(?) cadence somewhere since vegas is both de-interlacing and dropping frames (from disabling resample?) to convert the original 24p-over-60 interlaced images into 30 progressive frames

?

sorry to keep bugging you just thinking out loud. In trolling forums everywhere to get a complete picture of this stuff but as mentioned its reached a point of diminishing returns since people use the terms broadly and wrongly so you literally never know what someones referring to when they refer to what they are doing. I'm sure you know what I mean.

UPDATE:

or maybe I made a 60i (23.97 NTSC) .avi file, with "matched field pairs" as you noted, for web as well.

 

[David Jimerson]

Thanks, that's what I eventually thought--- I made a 30P file for web then the mpeg encoder made a 60i file from this 30P file.

Im guessing somewhere along the line I'm losing resolution or introducing some uneven/stuttery(?) cadence somewhere since vegas is both de-interlacing and dropping frames (from disabling resample?) to convert the original 24p-over-60 interlaced images into 30 progressive frames

If you're converting 24p to 30p, you're always going to have problems (as I mentioned in the 24p tute). You make an even bigger mess if you're doing it with 24p in a 60i stream and deinterlacing the 60i stream. First thing I say in the editing section is never do that.

or maybe I made a 60i (23.97 NTSC) .avi file, with "matched field pairs" as you noted, for web as well.

If you rendered as 30p, and then made the DVD file from that, then you didn't make an "NTSC 24p file" from that. The "NTSC 24p" file would be 60i with proper pulldown inserted. You won't get that by deinterlacing the 60i stream to 30p and then making a 60i file from it.

Better thing to do, by far, with Vegas Studio was simply create an NTSC DVD MPEG-2 file straight from the timeline, no deinterlacing, no 30p.

(The CORRECT thing to do, of course, is edit as 24p in Vegas Pro and then export a 24p DVD file.)

 

[nycineaste]

Thanks for all of the help and clarification. I'll be working towards getting what I need to remove pulldown and edit 24p to keep my workflow 24P throughout. Much thanks.