Randall_Oelerich
Veteran
I get your point. But I have to admit Yoda was able to walk the talk; that nimble little dude could his own in a light saber fight! Same for Obi.
why don't consultants / gurus write screenplays?
- Thread starter Randall_Oelerich
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Is it possible that the teachers PREFER teaching, over writing?
I've written a number of screenplays, taken 2nd place in a national contest and been a finalist and QF in a lot of others, and received a regional Emmy nom for writing. So I don't think I'm too shabby at it. But frankly I prefer teaching over trying to become a breakout writer.
I write screenplays when I feel I have a great story to tell.
But I come on this forum and teach and do lectures and seminars and presentations and workshops all over the globe, I write camcorder instructional books and write and produce camcorder and filmmaker instructional DVDs. Why? Because I can't NOT do that.
I've had my share of success in sales, in video game producing (lead programmer for Command & Conquer, Codie award for best game of the year, lead programmer for Disney's The Lion King, etc); in video production (most every award under the sun including an Emmy and three Emmy nominations for producing), in screenwriting... but I've walked away from most if not all of that, because none of those is as satisfying, all-encompassing, rewarding, and, frankly, my obsession, as teaching/training/helping is.
I've written a number of screenplays, taken 2nd place in a national contest and been a finalist and QF in a lot of others, and received a regional Emmy nom for writing. So I don't think I'm too shabby at it. But frankly I prefer teaching over trying to become a breakout writer.
I write screenplays when I feel I have a great story to tell.
But I come on this forum and teach and do lectures and seminars and presentations and workshops all over the globe, I write camcorder instructional books and write and produce camcorder and filmmaker instructional DVDs. Why? Because I can't NOT do that.
I've had my share of success in sales, in video game producing (lead programmer for Command & Conquer, Codie award for best game of the year, lead programmer for Disney's The Lion King, etc); in video production (most every award under the sun including an Emmy and three Emmy nominations for producing), in screenwriting... but I've walked away from most if not all of that, because none of those is as satisfying, all-encompassing, rewarding, and, frankly, my obsession, as teaching/training/helping is.
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Nektonic
Veteran
Barry, are you sure you're not Yoda? Is Barry Green just a cover for a Jedi master? The question is, does Panasonic make light sabers?
Randall_Oelerich
Veteran
Barry sounds like you have walked the talk. But that sort of reinforces the point that some have made -- that some of the gurus have never walked the talk, have never written a screenplay. Again, not meaning any disrespect to the gurus, they might have the gift of teaching rather than writing. But as others have said, I think I would trust teachers (you, others) who have at least produced something of what they profess to teach others to go out and do. Yoda and Obi taught Luke to use the force, use the light saber, but Yoda and Obi first did that themselves before turning to teaching it to others.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Well... obviously anyone is free to choose their own criteria whereby they value what someone else can do.
For example, some highly value a college degree. Anyone know what college Bill Gates graduated from?* Steve Jobs? Larry Ellison? Michael Dell? Paul Allen? There's five billionaires who changed the world, and not one of 'em has a college degree. I personally know several millionaires, and I don't think a single one of them finished college. So obviously, I don't put a huge amount of store in whether someone has a degree or not, I'm much more interested in whether they can do the job or not.**
From that perspective, I don't mind that McKee hasn't sold anything more substantial than a TV movie called "Abraham" 17 years ago. I still think he's the best story instructor out there, and I learned more from him than I had from a dozen books and classes I'd studied before.
Your mileage may vary.
*and no, I don't count "honorary degrees"
**and no, I'm not badmouthing education. Education is absolutely essential. I just question whether we really have to spend $20,000 a year, meaning we have to go $80,000 in debt just to get a piece of paper that says "this person meets with our stamp of approval". A tremendous amount of education can take place in a public library. Or, dare I say it, on an internet forum.
It's all up to the diligence and passion of the person doing the studying.
For example, some highly value a college degree. Anyone know what college Bill Gates graduated from?* Steve Jobs? Larry Ellison? Michael Dell? Paul Allen? There's five billionaires who changed the world, and not one of 'em has a college degree. I personally know several millionaires, and I don't think a single one of them finished college. So obviously, I don't put a huge amount of store in whether someone has a degree or not, I'm much more interested in whether they can do the job or not.**
From that perspective, I don't mind that McKee hasn't sold anything more substantial than a TV movie called "Abraham" 17 years ago. I still think he's the best story instructor out there, and I learned more from him than I had from a dozen books and classes I'd studied before.
Your mileage may vary.
*and no, I don't count "honorary degrees"
**and no, I'm not badmouthing education. Education is absolutely essential. I just question whether we really have to spend $20,000 a year, meaning we have to go $80,000 in debt just to get a piece of paper that says "this person meets with our stamp of approval". A tremendous amount of education can take place in a public library. Or, dare I say it, on an internet forum.
It's all up to the diligence and passion of the person doing the studying.djbobbyrhodes
Well-known member
******************
**and no, I'm not badmouthing education. Education is absolutely essential. I just question whether we really have to spend $20,000 a year, meaning we have to go $80,000 in debt just to get a piece of paper that says "this person meets with our stamp of approval". A tremendous amount of education can take place in a public library. Or, dare I say it, on an internet forum.
I always tell people that I'm going to school so I can have a $60,000 piece of paper. :grin:
JonathanLB
Carbonite Member
I'm with Barry on the college degree one, big time. I have a degree myself, graduated summa cum laude (3.97, only B was in screenwriting ironically! lol, I'm trying to atone for that one), but that being said I respect those who can do, not those with degrees. I know way too many people who have degrees but just in general don't have much motivation or ability. Also, my dad got a college degree, but he was going into dentistry. He ended up being kicked out of dental school, haha, so through a few other jobs he got into real estate, which led to commercial real estate (apartments, etc.), then assisted living, and now he has a company with more than 1,000 employees in 7 states. He never took a single business class in his life. So when people talk about their degrees, that's nice, but most things besides being a doctor, lawyer, etc., are determined more by your actual ability to do them, your drive, discipline, talent, etc. than your degree. My dad didn't even take a class in accounting, nothing, and yet he was a natural salesman (insurance) and then got into business.
Also, sometimes those who can't do teach, but sometimes those who do certainly cannot teach! I had a casual friend in high school, Mark, who was one of the most brilliant guys I know, he just got everything math/science, you name it, just by looking at it, but he could never explain ANYTHING. He would just be like, "Well... it's just, that's what it is." "Yes, but Mark, how did you get from the equation to the end result?! Where are your steps?" He'd grin at me, "I mean it's just... you just get it." I'd laugh at him, "No... YOU just get it, *I* don't get it AT ALL, which is why I'm asking you to help me!" haha, it was hopeless. I'd rather have someone who was just average at it teach me how to do it, because at least they may be able to explain it.
When things come too easy to some people, they have trouble explaining how they do it to others.
Also, sometimes those who can't do teach, but sometimes those who do certainly cannot teach! I had a casual friend in high school, Mark, who was one of the most brilliant guys I know, he just got everything math/science, you name it, just by looking at it, but he could never explain ANYTHING. He would just be like, "Well... it's just, that's what it is." "Yes, but Mark, how did you get from the equation to the end result?! Where are your steps?" He'd grin at me, "I mean it's just... you just get it." I'd laugh at him, "No... YOU just get it, *I* don't get it AT ALL, which is why I'm asking you to help me!" haha, it was hopeless. I'd rather have someone who was just average at it teach me how to do it, because at least they may be able to explain it.
When things come too easy to some people, they have trouble explaining how they do it to others.
I relate this to my economics lecturer. Surely he had the knowledge to take advantage and be wealthy? Nope. Drove around in an old piece of rubbish car and was what I call a real teacher. Dedicated to passing the knowledge along to his students. Spending hours after lectures to assist students through the theory. I dont expect my "teachers" to be successful, but I expect my teachers to be qualified to teach what they do. Look at Barry Green as a prime example, in his case he's been out there and done it. Do a search on Barry's posts on this forum - theres plenty there, and then look at the percentage of those he is guiding someone or passing along information. Staggering in the amount of time he has spent doing this on this forum. That's a teacher.
I dont own any books on screenwriting. And I dont see much point. I look at and read screenplays. Then ask "my teachers" about things and seek guidance from them. No Im not studying, these are people like Barry who know their stuff and have a need to pass it to others. Most importantly no matter what, if you write a GREAT STORY, even poorly prosed - those things will be sorted out. Write great stories! If your friends cant be bother reading past page 5, then it probably isnt good enough - honestly - or, your friends dont like to read, so find some that do.
The real issue in screenwriting, is many stories just arent good enough.
I dont own any books on screenwriting. And I dont see much point. I look at and read screenplays. Then ask "my teachers" about things and seek guidance from them. No Im not studying, these are people like Barry who know their stuff and have a need to pass it to others. Most importantly no matter what, if you write a GREAT STORY, even poorly prosed - those things will be sorted out. Write great stories! If your friends cant be bother reading past page 5, then it probably isnt good enough - honestly - or, your friends dont like to read, so find some that do.
The real issue in screenwriting, is many stories just arent good enough.
Nektonic
Veteran
Well, the trick here is that stories are subjective. One viewer might love SAW or Die Hard, while another one might hate both. The problem is that some of us write more personal stuff, while others are just better at writing stories that appeal to a large audience.
Sometimes a good deal of practical knowledge about the technical aspects of the craft can be very helpful. I know I've dug myself out of plot holes or structural snafus due to having read things like Syd Field's Screenplay or Blake Snyder's Save the Cat, for example. It is not only those books that helped me, because some of it is my own will and creativity, however, a book or class on craft can help to do some of the heavy lifting so to speak. Especially when starting out. So this is where I feel the gurus come into play. They can help set a new writer on a less meandering path. I wish I had read more books on craft when I first tried my hand at screenwriting.
I also think that for new writers, reading some good books on screenwriting principles or taking a class can be a good thing. Not only will these give them a primer (not a formula) and some theories, but can instill some confidence in a new writer by giving them tools to use when they hit a patch of writer's block or if they are not overly confident individuals in the first place. Although, I do believe that you gotta believe very strongly in your story, even if you doubt your abilities, if you want to write a good let alone a great script.
I think the real problem is when a writer gets all wrapped up in some insane quest to find the mystical perfect formula, or allows themselves to be told there is this one right way that so and so screenwriting guru teaches. It is like religion. You can read scripture, and it can inform your beliefs, but beyond a book of scripture or a church, there are other internal and external factors that come into play that shape our beliefs as well.
JonathanLB
Carbonite Member
Yeah, probably not a bad point at all. I mean, I am happy that I had a chance to study great films more as a viewer and critic before I ever was carefully analyzing structure or details like that.
I think screenwriting books are very helpful, though, and can be full of great advice, but I suppose you can't just blindly follow all advise, it's a good idea to figure out what makes sense for you and what doesn't, kind of knowing when you can break this or that rule.
In general, though, what you find in the good books about any craft are very good bits of advice, and you ignore them at your own peril. Most people who ignore the advice given on books about making short films, for instance, make really bad short films and are just too stubborn / stupid to take advice and learn.
The main thing indie filmmakers do is make stories nobody cares about. That's the problem with about 75% of the material I think, it's just boring crap that nobody but your mom cares about. I don't know why nobody is nice enough to be like, "Dude, your script sucks, this isn't something anyone cares to see!" But no, you have all of these people, "But my uncle really was a very interesting person, people will want to see the story if I tell it well." No they really won't. Not unless your uncle is Bill Gates or General Patton or something, lol.
I think screenwriting books are very helpful, though, and can be full of great advice, but I suppose you can't just blindly follow all advise, it's a good idea to figure out what makes sense for you and what doesn't, kind of knowing when you can break this or that rule.
In general, though, what you find in the good books about any craft are very good bits of advice, and you ignore them at your own peril. Most people who ignore the advice given on books about making short films, for instance, make really bad short films and are just too stubborn / stupid to take advice and learn.
The main thing indie filmmakers do is make stories nobody cares about. That's the problem with about 75% of the material I think, it's just boring crap that nobody but your mom cares about. I don't know why nobody is nice enough to be like, "Dude, your script sucks, this isn't something anyone cares to see!" But no, you have all of these people, "But my uncle really was a very interesting person, people will want to see the story if I tell it well." No they really won't. Not unless your uncle is Bill Gates or General Patton or something, lol.
Nektonic
Veteran
Ryan, what you're saying kinda reminds me about Stephen King's book On Writing. There is a part where he says something along the lines of writing not being the act of merely putting down information on paper.
It is actually one of my favorite books on writing in general, partly because King doesn't come off like he has some magical formula for storytelling. He just talks about how he went about writing and what worked for him and what didn't. Anyways, I know you may be familiar with that book, but I'm reminded of that approach... the "this is how I did it, see if you think any of my methods sound good and use them if you want" way of teaching. Of course, he still emphasizes sitting down and writing everyday, as well as finding your own way of doing things. I think we all need to find our own process.
For example, Philip K. Dick was known to let a story swim around in his head for a great while, until it reached critical mass and he just had to get it down on paper in a short burst of furious writing. Other writers might slowly chip away bit by bit at a script or a novel, almost like a master sculptor chisels away layers of stone to reveal a piece of art within.
Either way, I feel that we all find our own ways into a story and just like film and video production, all writers come up with different workflows. That's one of those things I find so intriguing about writing in general. Just the process from one writer to another is an art from in and of itself.
When I read this line I thought, there's a cool movie in there somewhere.
Logline:
Bill Gates and General Patton must save the world from time traveling aliens intending to rewrite Earth's history. The biggest thing standing in their way is that their Microsoft developed time machine's main computer is having a Windows Vista meltdown. So Bill calls up Steve Jobs to help them build the ultimate time machine, one made of Mac and Windows hardware and software.
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JonathanLB
Carbonite Member
Yeah Ryan, I would agree with that. You should spend more time writing, reading other screenplays, and even studying actual films to see how it all works out. It's not at all a bad idea to read a script and see the movie, so you can kind of compare how it was done.
In any case you learn most by doing. The reason I stopped reading books about filmmaking in general, like how to make short films, how to make your first movie, etc., was because every one of them was filled with amateur / n00b advice that was actually great stuff two years ago when I really didn't know what was the point of having a 1st A.D. or that a short film should be 10 minutes or so to get into festivals easier, whatever. But now they all read the same and I rarely find more than one or two interesting new things in any book I read, so I finally just gave up on them because I'll only expand my knowledge and abilities by this point by actually doing more work, not just by reading about it.
I'm still interested in reading a lot more screenplay advice, though. I don't take it as gospel but for me, I like to read articles and books on something I'm studying until such point as I feel like I have developed a style of my own and really understand what other viewpoints are out there. That helps me know what I want to do.
I think the problem Ryan is pointing out is how many people think that somehow if you "do everything right" or just "don't do anything wrong" as far as structure and rules, etc., that you somehow have a great, winning screenplay. This is obviously not the case. Greatness comes from innovation and from seeing things in a new way, and being able to tell a story that is a really interesting new twist on a familiar theme or something people really haven't seen much before, etc. It doesn't come from figuring out a perfect structure and then conforming every detail to a bunch of stupid beats given to you in some book. That is a freakin' joke and a half. If you're talented and you understand the way storytelling works, you don't need to follow every point of some wannabe screenwriter who sold a spec script once that was never produced. Sorry but that guy has about as much credentials to tell any of us about screenwriting as my uncle Phil. lol
In any case you learn most by doing. The reason I stopped reading books about filmmaking in general, like how to make short films, how to make your first movie, etc., was because every one of them was filled with amateur / n00b advice that was actually great stuff two years ago when I really didn't know what was the point of having a 1st A.D. or that a short film should be 10 minutes or so to get into festivals easier, whatever. But now they all read the same and I rarely find more than one or two interesting new things in any book I read, so I finally just gave up on them because I'll only expand my knowledge and abilities by this point by actually doing more work, not just by reading about it.
I'm still interested in reading a lot more screenplay advice, though. I don't take it as gospel but for me, I like to read articles and books on something I'm studying until such point as I feel like I have developed a style of my own and really understand what other viewpoints are out there. That helps me know what I want to do.
I think the problem Ryan is pointing out is how many people think that somehow if you "do everything right" or just "don't do anything wrong" as far as structure and rules, etc., that you somehow have a great, winning screenplay. This is obviously not the case. Greatness comes from innovation and from seeing things in a new way, and being able to tell a story that is a really interesting new twist on a familiar theme or something people really haven't seen much before, etc. It doesn't come from figuring out a perfect structure and then conforming every detail to a bunch of stupid beats given to you in some book. That is a freakin' joke and a half. If you're talented and you understand the way storytelling works, you don't need to follow every point of some wannabe screenwriter who sold a spec script once that was never produced. Sorry but that guy has about as much credentials to tell any of us about screenwriting as my uncle Phil. lol
Barry_Green
Moderator
Jonathan, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point.
It's the problem with about 95% of the material!
I took a screenwriting course from Michael Hauge about a decade ago, and he told the story of when he became a studio reader. He was advised that 90% of the scripts he was to read would be completely boring crap. He was like "no possible way -- people slave over these things, they pour their hearts into them, I'm sure there'll be more than 1 in 10 that are worth reading!" And then he started the job. And he said he was wrong, and so were they -- it's more like 99 out of 100 are *completely* unreadable. They're about things that absolutely nobody, anywhere, under any circumstances, could possibly care about.
When I was soliciting scripts way back, I had something like 140 cross my desk. Exactly two made it to the "second round".
Don't underestimate the importance of, as brought up earlier in this thread, actually "having something to say." It is a rare occurrence.
I absolutely 100% agree Barry. You only have to go as far as some quality films that are actually made and do well to realise that even many of these have plot holes everywhere, but they seem to get away with it. Ive mentioned it before, but check out Mystic River as a prime example. Plot holes. But the characters, the neighborhood, the story, are all things people can easily care about. I love the way Mystic river basically revolves around three men that grew up together in the same neighborhood but they were all given clear backstory and they were all utterly different in character and we were given clear reason to have a desire to care about them.
JonathanLB
Carbonite Member
HAHAHA, that had me laughing hard. Wow, see I really would be naive like Michael Hauge at first, I mean I wouldn't imagine that it's possible that people could be so excited about their projects, do the work, get them out there, and that so many would just be so boring / bad. Even with short films, when I've talked to screeners at festivals, like my co-producer on Devil's Matchmaker was a screener for Dances With Films, she said it's amazing how you'll go through film after film and almost everything is crap. I think sometimes it's easy to forget that there are a lot of people out there who really don't know what they're doing in any professional sense, and they are trying with the limited resources and knowledge they have, but they don't really "get it" (yet anyway) as far as what's going to work. That part doesn't really surprise me. That they send this stuff to festivals / competitions does. I certainly made some LOUSY short films, back in high school and college, but we were just having fun playing around, it was an exercise in shooting stuff, framing, doing some editing, and at the end of the day we took the shorts and watched them and... that was it. They were crappy, it's not like we didn't know that, but we got a good laugh out of it and moved on. Now apparently, a lot of other filmmakers take those shorts and actually send them places. That is a mistake! haha.
Charli
cool little "title"
I think until you 'mentor' someone you won't understand why some people write and some people teach and why some do both. I use to work over at talkcity.com back in the day when celebrity online chats were popular and I trained moderators to run chats, to run message boards like these, etc.
I actually enjoyed conducting the workshops MORE than actually doing the work itself (though doing the Garth Brooks chat was fun, fun, fun).
As a screenwriter I've helped other writers with their scripts, give feedback, mentor and unless you walk on both sides of the fence, you will NEVER understand the absolute fun it is when someone 'gets it' and it's because of you.
Mentoring is the BOMB even if a person never has actual life experience in a thing, they may understand the technique well enough to get that information to YOU!
I actually enjoyed conducting the workshops MORE than actually doing the work itself (though doing the Garth Brooks chat was fun, fun, fun).
As a screenwriter I've helped other writers with their scripts, give feedback, mentor and unless you walk on both sides of the fence, you will NEVER understand the absolute fun it is when someone 'gets it' and it's because of you.
Mentoring is the BOMB even if a person never has actual life experience in a thing, they may understand the technique well enough to get that information to YOU!
This is frequently because the script continues to undergo revision during photography, sometimes by a number of people with divergent interests and priorities, and by the time it's all in the editor's hands the materials that should go in those holes aren't available, or are dismissed by the same people who were tinkering with the script during production.
What winds up on screen may or may not bear close resemblance to the screenplay the studio agreed to produce.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Sad Max speaks wisdom. It's unfair to judge a screenplay by the movie that gets made from it! Look at the script (especially the ending) for "Raiders of the Lost Ark" to see how wildly the final film can deviate from what was written.
The only fair way to judge a screenplay is to read it.
The only fair way to judge a screenplay is to read it.
JonathanLB
Carbonite Member
haha, honestly that's about right! Well it'd also be like blaming the architect for what the foreman and the construction company does with his plans. Look, if it lays them all out clearly and it's a gorgeous plan, but these guys don't know how to do quality work and cut corners at every instance, buying cheap materials, not properly putting together the structure, etc., and they build a lousy house at a cheap cost with inexperienced workers, you can hardly say, "Wow, who designed this house?! It's awful!" It's awful because whoever built it is awful.