whose film program is better, Chapman or FSU?

R

randomchen

New member
I heard Chapman and FSU covers all the cost including equipment and film stock, is that true?

I'm preparing to apply film schools, but my savings are limited and I'm afraid I can't afford enough money on film shooting. That's why I choose Chapman and FSU, although both of them are far from L.A.

I'm expecting to be the film editor in the future, I'm very skillful in using Premiere and Final Cut, and I already acquired a lot of work experience including Olympics. But I'm worring that my career opportunities would be too narrow if I still choose the editing discipline.


My question is:

1. Which school provide better education and employment opportunities?

2. Do you think it's worth to spend money to learn editing? Or choose a new position, like cinematography, to broaden my professional skills?

3. As I'm an international fellow, all I can do is to focus on the technical level to make sure I have solid skills to make money. Do you think international people wouldn't have enough opportunities in cinematography and editing positions?

4. Is editing jobs secured? (or post production jobs) Does it sign contracts and work in a firm, and no need to worrying the next jobs forever?

Thanks!
 
The whole market is in a continual change. Depending on where you want to end up, and what you want to edit will indicate a direction for you to take. At the high end of the market there will always be a need for specialization - be it cinematography, producing, directing, editing, etc. As you move down from there in the more independent space, you will find having multiple skills handy such as cinematography, editing, etc. Many students find their love and talent in school such as veering more towards editing than another discipline. Some editors went on to be great editors as they learned the craft of storytelling on the different movies and challenges presented with each one - Hal Ashby for example.

When in school, don't focus so much on the tools - whether it be a type of camera, or editing system - focus on the craft and meaning behind the dialog, images and sounds to tell the story at hand. Talent will always find a way to make whatever is at hand work.

Another bonus from schools is the networking you get from your classmates as you move on beyond school as well as the Alumni.

Michael
 
Thank you for your elaboration. I agree with you that how to tell a story is always the most vital thing. Software and cameras are just tools.

But as you see, the film and video market in US is far from where I live. I don't even know that I have chance to "tell story" after graduated. Whether I could find a job inside the entertainment industry is just what I'm concerning. Once I graduated from school, I have limited time to find a job and stay in US, otherwise I have to leave America. After I could legally live in US, then I have the time and space to find a job that "tell stories".

This is why I would consider which discipline has better opportunities of employment. And this is also the reason I ask about the market for international fellows.
 
Ah... how fast can you find a job in your field of study... that's a whole other topic of discussion. Best bet will be as an assistant if you go post - usually on a reality type series which can be grinding, but it's a job. The next challenge will be why they hire you over an American citizen with the same background and education. You will need to make sure your talents are clearly needed by the employer when they fill out the forms. Perhaps language or other related skills will be of benefit.

Michael
 
What do you mean "grinding"? Is it very hard to get the job, or it's very torturous?

Since different schools provide different circles and chances, it's obvious that the reputation of the school is significant when you find a job. So I don't think it's another topic, these question are correlated. I've read some threads (in this forum) about a cinematographer, who graduated from Chapman and work as DP in more than 20 student films, work as the subordinate of another student, who graduated from USC but only shot 4 films. I don't mean that similar situations would happen in everywhere, I just want to explain why I ask about schools.

Are you an editor? What is the basic job in the field? Like what you said, an assistant editor for a reality TV series? How much is the average salary?
 
School doesn't mean you'll be more likely to be hired. Honestly, the name of the school can hurt you as well. NYU and Emerson types get the reputation of film snobs who will think they are better than everyone else regardless of the position they are in. It's sterotyping, yeah. But it happens.

It really doesn't matter where you graduate from. If you are asked which school you got your film degree from whilst applying, I'll eat my hat (and I don't wear hats).

Any school you go to, the opprotunities will be massive. I know people who shot every film they were asked to shoot (at Ithaca College). They racked up 15-20 films. None of them particularly good. Lot's of bridges burned there. But now she's gripping and gaffing in LA. From what I understand, she loves it. She's not shooting anything despite her resume. She's working her way up.

I know some talented people who graduated from the same school who are currently working for PETA asking for donations....

You have to make it what it is. The network is what really matters. It's not what you know, it's who you know. And talented people often work under morons. It's a fact of life.
 
Thanks for your advice, and please don't eat your hat~ lol

I'll explain why I concern so much. I got my undergrad degree from a school (not in US) which is very close to the TV industry but far from films. I found it after I graduated. I tried to get into the film industry but failed at last. So I went to the TV station to make sports programs. But it's not the career that I want to end up with. If I have the chance to choose again, I definitely wouldn't go to this school.

So this is why I want to know about the work opportunties even when I'm just applying. Though the high tuition wouldn't bereave my everything, it's still a great fortune. Choose wisely and cautiously is what I can do on this step.

What you just said is the truth. Not people who showed his talent in school would find a perfect job or run big projects after graduated. I know lots of people who end up like the PETA guys. Maybe they are not quite good at collaboration, or they set their goals too high. And the girl you just said, maybe she's not a good director or writer, but she's maybe a good cooperator. Work is full of compromise. The talent is not the only thing that would decide one's destiny.

Obviously I don't have any network before I go to US. What I could tell you is that I can handle 50 hours raw material, 150,000 word interview log, two thousand photos, three thousand subtitles, work 10 hours a day with no weekends and make a 100 minutes documentary by my own. I believe I already have the craft and I need to sharpen it. At the same time, I want to choose the right circle (school). I don't have another chance~

So maybe I don't have merit in language and network. Maybe the only thing that I could excel a native guy with the same education background is my skill and industry. So I really hope the school could provide a good circle.

I really want to know more about the market. The average salary, work hours(especially editing), discrimination or indiscrimination to foreign employees, etc.
 
Do you know about AFI Conservatory? I also plan to apply the editing discipline in this school. Is it possible for me?

Does students graduated from AFI have more advantages? (If they are competent on techinical level)
 
Eh

Eh

Really, nobody asks where you went to school except as curiosity, nobody cares. It's just like they might ask what your favorite sports team is -- your answer doesn't matter, it's just making conversation. The same is true with film school. I went for 8 weeks, not even, and nobody cares. It's all about ability and reel and connections.
 
What I meant grinding, is long hours, repetitive tasks (usually logging, logging, and more logging) and there is a high turnaround. I have heard from production companies that do reality series that if an assistant is there for more than three months there is something wrong with them (career wise)!

Michael
 
Haha, that's funny, talk about putting in your time huh?

I had a friend at a trailer editing house who was an assistant editor for about a year, but then he moved up to a full editor, so that is pretty cool. I don't know what the usual path or time frame is, but that seemed good to me.

I don't know much about FSU, but this friend I just mentioned came from Chapman and so have several other people I've worked with. Everyone I've known or worked with from Chapman has been really competent and creative, I've had great experiences with their graduates and students, personally. I have toured their facilities and seen them all, and watched work being done by the students on their stages, too. Really amazing facilities they have, and I hear the staff is fantastic too.

If I were to recommend someone go to a film school, it would be between USC and Chapman. I have no idea why UCLA keeps getting listed on top film schools when in fact it really hasn't been competitive for a decade at least. It's more like Chapman, USC, AFI, and NYU are the big ones. UCLA would I'm sure be top 10 because it's in L.A. and has some tradition, but I think it's lazy book writers who keep including it despite nothing of note happening there for a long time. No big grants I know of, no big directors coming out of there, really not a great program. A good one, I'm sure. Not world class like USC.
 
I've heard from a few different places that UCLA is more production heavy whereas USC is more theory heavy. I can't recall if it was the directing or screenwriting concentration that they were talking about but the number of scripts/movies that the curriculum required was like 3-1 UCLA-USC.

Any truth to this?
 
Well, USC is known for having better above-the-line graduates, and not so much for production. In fact I've heard from a ton of people that USC students have an attitude and have no clue how to get around a set. It's like how Los Angeles Film School or AFI students are known for being great on set, because the technical training is there, but they're not always the smartest kids as far as creativity and talent. They are stereotypes because great filmmakers can come from absolutely anywhere, but there is also truth in those stereotypes.

USC reeks of "too many chiefs, not enough Indians."

I've heard some rather hilarious stories about USC kids just not knowing their way around a set at all, which is surprising to me.

Ironically one of my big reasons for not wanting to go to USC or UCLA or another graduate program, even Chapman, was because of the theory. I say ironically because nobody could be a bigger supporter of theory and having a firm foundation in film history / criticism than I am. But I already had one, so I really didn't want to go through a year of sitting in a classroom listening to 75-85% stuff I already knew. I spent years running my own review site, studying every classic film I could get my hands on, and reading countless books about film history, even the history of foreign film cultures like Germany, Soviet Russia, France, Japan, etc. I love film history and theory, it's very fascinating to me, every filmmaker should have a firm foundation of knowledge about what has come before them, I think. Who can you expect to be keepers of the art if not for us, filmmakers? We should really know our own art as well as possible. But for me, that was why I didn't want to attend a graduate school because I felt too eager to be doing production.

If I had went to Chapman, I would just have graduated, and there's no way I'd already be in the DGA and have directed my first feature, and I wouldn't understand the business principles about the industry that I do now. I'd probably have a better understanding of some of the technical aspects of being on set, but I wouldn't understand how to run a media company or how to get production insurance, deal with unions, negotiate crew deals, etc. That kind of stuff is taken care of for you if you're a director there, so you end up coming out into the real world idealistic and lacking in knowledge you absolutely need to survive. Plus, as with anything, most schools teach you to be a follower and an employee not a leader. Leaders don't follow, even in school, which is why so many of the wealthiest, most successful people never graduated. It's not in their nature.

I'd caution that with any film school experience. Make sure you're the type of person who should go to film school. Specifically, the type of person who needs a good kick in the butt, who needs a structured program where you can learn from a series of people on their time schedule and the way they want to teach you. For me, I wanted to learn at my pace not the pace of the slowest person in class, and I wanted to learn what I wanted to learn, when I wanted to learn it, and sometimes by doing, not by watching. I consider myself a very humble person when it comes to learning in the sense that if I respect someone, I want to soak up every piece of knowledge they have, listen to them fully, and learn whatever I can. I still read books on the film industry constantly, even ones that are "below me" and don't really apply, just to make sure there's nothing I missed. But I also get impatient very quickly when someone is trying to teach me who is unqualified to teach or give advice. Like, don't tell me that you're an expert editor when you graduated the same film school 5 years ago, and don't tell me that Avid is all we need to know and then admit to me privately you only use Final Cut for your professional work. That kind of thing happened to me in film school. Or people telling you how the film industry is when they haven't even sniffed it themselves. It's pathetic if a school cannot hire real filmmakers to teach, I mean really, why bother.

It seems to me also that film school should be a cheaper solution not a more expensive one. If it's going to cost $30,000 to $40,000 a year, you would be better off making your own projects and not going to school, you'd learn far more. Imagine if you wanted to be an editor and you said ok, I'll take that money and use it to live on for three years while I edit free projects for people. Trust me, you'd get a lot of interest. "I'll edit for free if you let me, if you hate it, you don't have to use it," and then you spend your free time reading every editing book you can, looking at tutorials, maybe even studying under an editor here. There are so many superior ways to learn. To come to L.A. and pay money to go to film school seems to me like going to a candy store and paying for a guide to help you find candy. I mean, it's right there, why do you need a guide finding it? It's everywhere!
 
I live about 12 miles from FSU film school. I went to FSU. I have friends who've graduated from that film school. I have friends currently attending. Is it a good film school? I don't have much to compare it to. I see the student's productions. Some of the MFA films are decent. The BFA projects for the most part are awful. Maybe that's down to the students and not the school, I don't know.

I happened upon an MFA shoot a few months ago after I had wrapped for the day on a shoot I was doing. I hung around for a bit, asked a few questions, observed. It was a nicely run set with some good gear. I can say that at least the FSU kids get nice gear to work with. Some treat it with respect, others not so much. I guess like any teens or early 20-somethings.

There is Z-E-R-O film community outside of the university. You cannot stay near FSU and do film work. You'll starve. So if that is the choice, be prepared to graduate and leave. The school is built around this reality. This is also the deep south. And all that entails for better or worse.

If I had it to do all over again, I could think of about 100 places I'd have rather gone to school. But I was 17 when I made the decision. It's served me pretty well, but I wouldn't make the same choice today. That's for sure.
 
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