Who is responsible? Director or Cinematographer? or Producer? Who is boss?

Dafilman21 said:
But at no point did the producer try to be the DP that is not there role.
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Well it is his role if he has the background to bring a vision to life... Some producers have been directors, DOP, writers, gaffers, PA's, bottle washers.... done it all... and yes some are just suits... If you are fortunate enough to work with a producer who has been through the wars and he knows the vision and look the picture is trying to achieve.. then it is his role and right... I think people get to hung up on titles and territory... Ultimately you work for the producer and the director to achieve their vision.. not your own... It's their movie...
 
vic777 said:
Let's say as Cinematographer, (on a low budget) you set up the shot, and it needs more light. The Director/Producer and Gaffer all say, "No, this is what we want". You try to explain that the monitor image is not the same as what will be recorded, they are all uptight (assuming the Directors paranoia about the phoney self imposed schedule ... a certain festival) and they want the shot and they want it now! You adjust the lights, as you get back to the view finder you hear the Director say, "I don't like it", the Gaffer changes the setup. You use the only trick left in your arsenal and change the shutter speed to 1/24 doubling the exposure, they don't seem to notice and the camera rolls. Half way thru the day you say, "We're poo pooed!". They seem a little more interested in what you're talking about. OK, my question is ... when the movie gets shown ... and some scenes are criticized for being, "too dark", who gets the blame? That's all I'm worried about now. Who gets the blame?. I vow on my next project to have total control!
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You (the cinematographer) gets the blame and the producer is at fault for hiring that director on a power trip.
 
WhiteMonkey said:
Independant shorts and features. I used to think "collaboration" on the set was a good idea.
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You better be paying everyone on set full rate. I don't know how you like to work, but making examples of people doesn't seem very productive.

As off topic as this may seem, I recommend listening to this podcast by This American Life about the Nummi car plant in Fremont, CA.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/403/nummi

It was basically the first venture between GM and Toyota. They go to the Japanese auto plant and start to talk about the differences between their plant and the GM plant, and why things run so much smoothly there. One of the big things is the fact that the Japanese encourage their workers to speak up. If they suggest something that increased productivity, they got a bonus. They're the ones that sit there all day and do their job, and if anyone's going to be able to tell you how conditions could be improved, it's going to be them.

I've really tried to take this to heart...when I shoot things now and my operator isn't giving me what I want, I don't yell or get angry with them, but instead ask them what's going on and if there is anything I can do to help. Sometimes it's as simple as moving another inch on the dolly, or slightly tweaking an actor...but you'll never find that out with your method.

What it comes down to, is just don't hire someone if you can't trust them with their job. Simple as that.
 
RyanT said:
You better be paying everyone on set full rate. I don't know how you like to work, but making examples of people doesn't seem very productive.
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Everyone does these things differently. That is part of the beauty of it. The best part about being in the south is all of the migrant labor. I can get 10 guys working for what it would cost me to hire two "professionals." I can train them in their jobs in an hour and I get a highly obedient and productive crew. It's brilliant. You should try it.

Seriously, I'm joking.

I would only call someone out on set if they were being disruptive and undermining the command structure of the crew. I take no pleasure in it but am more than willing to deal with bad seeds on set.

On my last picture, I had a small cast and crew consisting of 5 or 6 other directors. It was a group project, but the group mentality and group collaboration and constant advice was detrimental to the actor's mood and performance and the picture suffered as a result. Imagine setting up lights for a shot and getting 5 or 6 (valid) opinions on what you should do, the whole time knowing what to do and it being a hinderance rather than help. This wasn't limited to lighting, but dialogue, eyelines, everything you can imagine. It was hard to direct in such an environment I have to admit. One of the Directors, my AD, did his job flawlessly. One heard me say, "it's getting crowded in here." and took off. Overall it undermined my authority as Producer, Director, DP, and writer and affected my ability to lead. I did not call anyone out, it was a group project and a group effort but I learned a lot of valuable lessons and have implemented them into my organization.

So I guess the lesson to be learned is, if you're going to work with me, do what's expected of you and keep the suggestions to yourself. If you don't like it, you can go work for someone else.

Also, If I'm going to be working with/for you, expect me to do my job and keep quietly ahead of you. Someone on set who can anticipate you is a big help on set.
 
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RyanT said:
They're the ones that sit there all day and do their job, and if anyone's going to be able to tell you how conditions could be improved, it's going to be them.

I've really tried to take this to heart...when I shoot things now and my operator isn't giving me what I want, I don't yell or get angry with them, but instead ask them what's going on and if there is anything I can do to help. Sometimes it's as simple as moving another inch on the dolly, or slightly tweaking an actor...but you'll never find that out with your method.

What it comes down to, is just don't hire someone if you can't trust them with their job. Simple as that.
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I couldn't agree with you more about your last statement.

You're admission of the Japanese way does not apply in my situation. I'm the one with the experience. I'm the one that has sat there and got the job done for someone else. I'm the one with the clear vision and intent. Hell, I wrote the script probably.

I'm so ready to argue. I think I proved the Japanese thing right too. So we're on the same side. Yeah!
 
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first of all, i'm not talking about others trying to be the director. That's never a good idea.

I think you've admitted the key issue. You seem to work with incompetent people. I'd be reluctant to solicit advice from those types as well. Sure, people are free to work in different ways and with different tyrannical approaches, but don't sweep co-operation and collaboration under the rug until you've experienced it with those you feel are at the level you desire. I have a feeling the world will open up for you when that happens.
 
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"The gaffer said..."

"The gaffer said..."

The gaffer said what?

I've lurked here for years, but don't think I've ever felt the need to reply to something before. I've worked on sets for TV and film for nearly 20 years. I started as a PA. I've worked on set and in the office and in post. I've worked features, docs, and network news. Now I own my own company.

I have to say, this shouldn't even be an issue.

The director should have established the look of the scene with the DP in pre-production. Lighting style, emotional tone, not just how he wanted it to look but how he wanted the audience to react. How he wanted to direct or misdirect the audience should have been laid out in copious notes before shooting, then reviewed at the start of the day.

After that it's the DP's job. (And, yeah, you're getting the blame if there's a technical problem.) Never let a Director brow beat you into making TECHNICAL mistakes. Artistic differences are another matter. How you handle those is up to you.

The gaffer works for the DP. The DP is the department head. The gaffer is the crew boss. He doesn't give an opinion to the director or the producer. [If the producer asks him, he should demur saying it's above his pay grade. (Because it is.)]

As for who's in charge;
For TV:
the Producer is in charge both financially and creatively. He gets to push everybody around to maintain schedule. But they're usually smart enough to trust their technical crews. (Not knocking DP's as artists. Just saying it's a science as well as an art.)

the director is usually a freelancer who may only work on one episode per season, so the producer has the only consistent vision from episode to episode.

the DP is usually the same for the run of the show (or at least a couple of seasons) and he is responsible for maintaining a consistent look for the show. The director really won't have much leeway in dictating visual elements for the show. A show that is usually shot with locked down cameras isn't going to suddenly use a lot of steadicam work just because one director wants to.

For Film:

For anything less than auteur films it pretty much works the same way.

The producer develops the project and hires everyone else, so he gets to wear the big pants.

The director's vision is much more a part of what the movie is about, so artistic decisions are usually up to him. If he's "an actor's director" he may turn over almost all visual decisions to the DP, but that's his choice. (I've also been on sets that were run like TV sets, where the director is just hired to fulfill the producers vision. That usually happens when the producer is also the writer.)

It's still the DP's job to get the technicalities correct. If cost and time drive him to cut corners, it may cost production value, but it should still be exposed properly. Ugly footage is one thing. Bad footage is another.

The gaffer only gets to yell at the grips.

When STARS are involved all of this goes out the window, and it's all a matter of whose tantrum shakes the heavens most.

Anywho, that's my rant. Sorry. Tl;dr. all that. But seriously. That was so unprofessional it was infuriating. I'm better now. I probably won't even post this. Nope. There I go. Sent.
 
Jafi said:
The gaffer said what? I've lurked here for years,

.......... But seriously. That was so unprofessional it was infuriating. I'm better now. I probably won't even post this. Nope. There I go. Sent.
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AMEN JAFI! Exactly correct, and Ive lurked here since the boards started.
 
Ryan Patrick O'Hara said:
first of all, i'm not talking about others trying to be the director. That's never a good idea.

I think you've admitted the key issue. You seem to work with incompetent people. I'd be reluctant to solicit advice from those types as well. Sure, people are free to work in different ways and with different tyrannical approaches, but don't sweep co-operation and collaboration under the rug until you've experienced it with those you feel are at the level you desire. I have a feeling the world will open up for you when that happens.
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Those are kind words and you may be right. I live in a city without much of an entertainment industry. Most of the people I work with are inexperienced but they do a good job on set. I'd love to find a DP to work with, someone I could collaborate with and increase my production values. It's hard to let that go when most people I meet don't even know about 180 degree shutters. I see it in their work. Must be the curse of the DSLR. Everyone is a DP now.

The thing is about collaborating on set is that's not how I make films. I come from an animation background and storyboard everything. There is a lot of work going on to the image before we ever get to the set. Getting on set to me is about shooting the boards. The films already been made in pre-production. There is no room for collaboration. Everything is already blocked and we are just there to capture the performances on the set with the camera and sound. I don't see why that's so hard to understand and it's something I learned from studying Alfred Hitchcock. He was an art director before he was a director.

Clones would be worse I think.

This is a great thread. I'm left now with a curiosity as to what you're talking about. This thing I am missing. Maybe someone here could make me a guest on their set and I'll come out and see how you do things differently. I'm shooting in Aug/Sept. I'd be willing to accept a guest to my set this summer. Let me know. I've got nothing to hide.
 
Jafi said:
The director should have established the look of the scene with the DP in pre-production. Lighting style, emotional tone, not just how he wanted it to look but how he wanted the audience to react. How he wanted to direct or misdirect the audience should have been laid out in copious notes before shooting, then reviewed at the start of the day.
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+1
 
White monkey, that'd be great if everything always went to plan. When things go off schedule or some catastrophe occurs, you shouldn't be entirely shut off to collaboration when you probably need it most. Sure you shouldn't be fielding suggestions from everyone on the crew, but it's not a bad idea to take other people's ideas into consideration, especially with those who you trust the most.
 
Guess you don't know about taking a Smithee. But if you want to use my name to hide you go ahead this time, I am sure it won't do me any damage and your work will be fine, it will be even better the next time since you have all this good advice to work with. I will spare you any of mine however.
WhiteMonkey said:
If the work's bad I'll put Brian Murphy.
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The Golden rule: He who has the Gold makes the rules.

Dude wants to be an idiot and screw up his movie due to a large ego and a small watsis, he has paid for that right and will most likely pay even more for his folly later.

Your job as DP, Gaffer etc. is to bring the vision of the Director to life.
Advise him if you must, but in the end it's his neck in the noose.

Rank wise:

Producer
Director
DP

Nothing I hate more than a DP trying to tell me what my creative vision should be.

Nothing better than a DP helping me bring my vision to life.

I worship my DP, he is the Sun and Moon and Stars to me, he turns my ideas into realities.

Previous guy was super experienced and highly rated but made me feel like every blocking and lighting decision I made was 'infantile'.
Dude may have been right, but it was my decision to make and you sure as hell won't get me to listen to your advice by making me feel like I don't have creative control.
It's bloody stressful making a feature as it is without added nonsense on set.

Methinks respect all round is the only answer but when the chips are down, rank is rank.

I'll help the DP pack his truck if he doesn't have my back!
 
Wilbur Eddings said:
Previous guy was super experienced and highly rated but made me feel like every blocking and lighting decision I made was 'infantile'.
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Does this still hold true for no-budget Indy productions ?

I've been part of a few small projects where it was obvious that the Director knew nothing about lighting or camera, so most of the time he was talking through his hat. I tried to compromise by trying to interpret what I thought he meant at the time.

Worst part about these projects is that these non-techie people then want to sit in on the color correction and grading and again it's obvious that they have no clue about anything.
 
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