White balancing toward a cooler feel

Finnegan

Finnegan

Well-known member
Pretty simple question: If you're shooting outside on a clear, sunny day but you want the image to look colder, as in on the bluer side of the spectrum, what color do you white balance on? A warmer object?
 
Finnegan said:
Pretty simple question: If you're shooting outside on a clear, sunny day but you want the image to look colder, as in on the bluer side of the spectrum, what color do you white balance on? A warmer object?
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There are some commercial products that have differing shades of 'white' to allow for a 'balancing' in a particular direction. In the case of wanting a 'blue', then balancing with a 'brown/warm' target will result in a more bluish image. Likewise for wanting 'warm'... use a bluish target.

However, I'd probably balance for neutral and use post-processing to give a color cast.
 
lairhair said:
It would be so much easier and safer to do it in post.
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For f#$k sake man. It's easier and safer to do it in production if you know what you want and you know what you are doing.

Doing it in production will be less work overall, saves the production time/money, and allows the cinematographer to do his job. The DP can better control his vision... the vision he has been trusted with when hired and paid to do.

Get pro. This isn't willy nilly time.


To answer this thread, (which is not about production vs post btw), Yes... if you want a cooler look, whitebalance on something that is a bit warm. The camera will overcompensate. J1Clark is right.... They make tinted white cards which are called warm or cool cards. These are like the white cards you would use to white balance off of, but have various 'tints' of either cool or warm tones. These will trick the camera by letting the camera over compensate thinking the cards are actually white. You can do this with normal white cards, if you shoot the camera through slightly tinted gels. You may also do some slight adjustments in some scene files settings depending on what camera you are using. The HVX200/HPX170 and others allow for this adjustment when not in a color temp present.

DP's of such shows such as 'It's Always Sunny in Philidelphia' (which used DVX100's) have said that a big part of thier 'look' was attributed to thier use of warm cards. Lairhair, I like you man, but I'd like to invite you to ask that DP, a professional, why he didn't do his job in post. All I know is if you had said this to any of the ASC members I know, they would have all had a minor break down, which would pale in comparision to the one you just witnessed. :)

Best,

-Ryan

DP/Cinematographer.
 
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Ehhh I have a preference to not experiment with in camera tinting because with my experience of doing it it is hard to keep continuity with changing light. Especially out doors. Say you tint it at like -4 then during the golden hour you have to adjust it with the changing light. I dont know im not an experimental DP unless the Director asks me to.
 
Experimentation, by definition, is to determine the efficacy of something previously untried. So it's an easier and safer way for somebody to do in post.... if that person is inexperienced. A big difference, although I still don't agree that inexperienced folk shouldn't do things the right way, because otherwise... how do they learn and grow?
 
Well I dont want to point fingers here but we have to assume finnegan is inexperienced because he doesnt know how to do the color balance change yet. I figured that he'd rather do it in post then learn from a mistake that cant be easily fixed.
 
lairhair said:
Well I dont want to point fingers here but we have to assume finnegan is inexperienced because he doesnt know how to do the color balance change yet. I figured that he'd rather do it in post then learn from a mistake that cant be easily fixed.
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In my response I indicated I'd do the color cast in post, most likely... On the one hand doing the color shift using White Balance would use the fullest range (I'm assuming the processing of the color balance happens before the compression...) of the camera's digitization process, some of which is lost in the DV/HD encoding process... On the other hand, I do like the 'creative' choice in post, despite the loss of resolution because of the encoding process...

If I were more into events, like weddings, I'd probably do the color balance shift, because those EvilOnesIncarnate... aka brides... are so damn impatient... so why spend extra time if a 'warm' look is going to get the customer's satisfaction... not everyone want's "Corpse Bride"(2005) bluish cast of the 'realworld' for their magic day... or the garish brilliant colors of the 'underworld'... (just watched it again an hour ago...)
 
Ryan Patrick O'Hara said:
For f#$k sake man. It's easier and safer to do it in production if you know what you want and you know what you are doing.

Doing it in production will be less work overall, saves the production time/money, and allows the cinematographer to do his job. The DP can better control his vision... the vision he has been trusted with when hired and paid to do.

Get pro. This isn't willy nilly time.


Well so much for the RED ONE work flow:)
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every time is willy nilly time when you need to ask on dvxuser how to change color in camera with white balance. Sorry I wanted to save his production time and money by not having to fix an in camera disaster.
 
lairhair said:
every time is willy nilly time when you need to ask on dvxuser how to change color in camera with white balance. Sorry I wanted to save his production time and money by not having to fix an in camera disaster.
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First, the reason I asked the question is because I shoot weddings for a company called Elysium Productions (check my signature). Anyone who shoots weddings knows that sometimes the reception ballrooms can be extremely warmly lit in addition to being very dim. In these situations it's impossible to white balance on, for instance, the bride's dress (which everyone knows is white) simply because it maintains a warm feel because of the light.

So, I guess I should have contextualized my question a little better. But this question was not because I don't know how to white balance, or how the color spectrum works. It was more to overcorrect the color spectrum so that the footage looks cooler and more natural, even though it really IS that warm in real life.
 
lairhair said:
every time is willy nilly time when you need to ask on dvxuser how to change color in camera with white balance. Sorry I wanted to save his production time and money by not having to fix an in camera disaster.
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I figured since he specifically was asking how to do it in camara and since doing it in post is not necessarily the right way to do it, the answer of 'do it in post' was not helpful in anyway for his situation or desire to learn... If I was a school student, and I asked you how to multiply, and you told me to get a calculator... I think that would be missing the point. Sure I could mess up doing the written multiplication with paper and pencil, but later down the road I'd be better off for knowing it.... especially when a calculator is not available to me. Nothing personal, but if you are all about saving people from their mistakes, I guess my angle is about taking risks, learning, and bettering yourself. I know these comments of mine might seem personal lairhair, I just come off that way in written form... but it's not. I dig your work, and for your age you are much further along then I was. I hope my stance made some sense.

Diang: I'm not sure the RED one workflow IS supposed to be used like that, btw. The RAW space does let you do more manipulation in post but that is not necessarily how you should use it. You can shoot the RED with the lighting, contrast, and color you desire.... in camera... they even allow you to manually set any color temperature value in kelvin in the menu setting. Something that would be useless if we were all to shoot clean and let somebody in post create the look.
 
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Finnegan said:
First, the reason I asked the question is because I shoot weddings for a company called Elysium Productions (check my signature). Anyone who shoots weddings knows that sometimes the reception ballrooms can be extremely warmly lit in addition to being very dim. In these situations it's impossible to white balance on, for instance, the bride's dress (which everyone knows is white) simply because it maintains a warm feel because of the light.

So, I guess I should have contextualized my question a little better. But this question was not because I don't know how to white balance, or how the color spectrum works. It was more to overcorrect the color spectrum so that the footage looks cooler and more natural, even though it really IS that warm in real life.
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I know exactly what you mean. Those bulbs are usually kinda old, and orange to begin with. Then they are dimmed down for that 'atmosphere' which even further drops the color temperature (I think 10* kelvin for every volt, but i might be wrong). In the end, you get a magical... but sometimes to warm an image.

Finding something white in that lighting environment and balance off that... such as her dress (if nothing else is around)... *should* zero you out, granted the lighting does not change. But if you want to have it warmer then correct balance, but not as bad as before, you will want to find some white values with slight tones of blue. (or use the scene file). Using something slightly blue will have the camera not correct as much as it should leaving some little extra warmth in the picture.
 
Again I apologize but even for weddings I personally do it in post because there is so much to worry about at one time. Rule of thumb for in camera wb mods is this. Wb on something warm the picture gets cooler vise versa. When I am not in a rush I put a cto infront of a white card and balance to make it cooler. Or a ctb to make it warmer.
 
Finnegan, if you can white balance off of a white piece of paper (even something as simple as a plain piece of printer paper) then head into your Scene File and change the color temp. That is if you want to do all that in a wedding. NOTE: You cannot change the color temp of a preset white balance on the DVX or HVX (I am almost positive on this one). That would be in-camera or on this thread could be called "Ryan's Way" or you can do it in post and potentially lose a little quality, but move quicker at the wedding; this is what i like to call "Lairhair's way" (YES, this IS a joke)

To everyone else....why cant we be friends? why cant we be friends? hahaha sorry
 
Finnegan you are over-thinking the issue and confusing yourself.

White-balancing on any white object in the room will remove the color cast.
 
banksie312 said:
That would be in-camera or on this thread could be called "Ryan's Way" or you can do it in post and potentially lose a little quality, but move quicker at the wedding; this is what i like to call "Lairhair's way" (YES, this IS a joke)

To everyone else....why cant we be friends? why cant we be friends? hahaha sorry
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The closest I have to battle experience on this is with still camera wedding coverage. After The Wife switched to digital, we predominantly shot using jpeg mode... while some 'pros' would cry that we could not 'adjust' our images because 'jpeg' loses information through the compression process, the fact of that compression process allowed us to shoot longer without having to change memory devices.

Back when we shot film, very often I would spend 75% of my time 'feeding her camera'. With using the jpeg format, we upped our coverage considerably.

We did 'in camera' white balance as well, using any reasonable target if the lighting changed...

Now with larger capacity devices, we have been tending to shoot 'raw', but then we don't shoot weddings all that much these days...

What is interesting, is that 'shooting raw' has not really changed the resulting out put. Almost always we just convert, crop, and output to Jpeg as before... sure a particularlly whacked shot may get 'saved'... but then we did expose good enough having shot with jpeg...

For events I think the primary goal is documentation, and being where the action is. Doing so, may require doing things that one would perhaps not do on a shoot for a narrative film, or other type of film where on does have the time to setup correctly...
 
Uhhh.....yeah, so.... getting back to the topic at hand: the gist of it is opposites attract. That doesn't really mean anything except to help your brain remember that if you want a cooler feel, you white balance on something warm. For a warmer look, you white balance on something cooler.

Of course, don't forget to keep your friends close but your enemies closer. That had no double meaning; I'm just sayin'.

As far as the discussion on post vs in-camera: it just depends on the project...like everything else. It also depends on the DP. I personally like to get it right in camera so only slight adjustments are needed in post simply to help shots play well together in the same scene. Otherwise, I don't shoot "willy nilly" in the hopes I can get the look I want on a computer because I don't have the knowledge and experience to do my job right the first time, all the time, because I'm a pro and I have to know this stuff inside and out.

And yeah, if I knew anyone at the Society they'd probably freak just like Ryan. I know I did...I had just calmed down before I got to the Quick Reply window...

Oh, and on Raw. I shoot Canon RAW as a still photographer all the time. But I still light and compose and use a light meter and the correct film speed, aperture, shutter speed, zoom/distance, and all of that as if I would never be able to go into Photoshop later to "fix it in post". Though there are things you have to do in post like fixing skin blemishes and what not. So the two work well together, of course, but "fixing in post" just seems like a cop-out/excuse to me.

[rant: not aimed at anyone]

I mean, c'mon guys....doesn't having footage that is very close to being already correct make post easier, anyway? I mean, why paint the house when the walls haven't even been nailed in correctly? Yeah, the color looks nice but the walls are still messed up. You're not fixing anything in post...you're trying to hide your inadequacies as a DP! Go be an editor or color timer if you're so hung up on post and leave the photography to people that know what they're doing.

[/rant: sorry about that, I had to vent - I wasn't yelling at anyone in particular]
 
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Finnegan said:
First, the reason I asked ... even though it really IS that warm in real life.
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To answer you directly, OP, I forgot what camera you're using, but if you can have presets, just use those: one for incandescent, one for fluorescent...that sort of thing. Look online (like at B&H) for a white balance card thing that you can carry in your pocket and whip out for WB compensation times such as these.

And remember: it's all about the opposites. If you want it warmer, WB on something cooler, etc. For sickening green, WB on orange. Stuff like that.

On general white balance stuff:
When I shoot run'n'gun TV spots I usually have the script printed on one side of a regular sheet of white 8x5" printing paper that I fold and tuck into my back pocket. I'll whip that out if I don't have anything else to WB on. Also, if I'm in a hurry, I'll use concrete (gray is good too, in a pinch) or some other kind of white paper (I'll zoom in, out of focus so it's just the idea of the white/gray and WB on that). It's improper but it IS a ballpark WB that will get you where you need to be without having completely unusable footage (I shoot a lot of news stuff so all these points come in handy).
 
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