White balance every shot or every scene?

dwyz said:
Right this threads convinced me to get a light meter.
Any good tutorials to check out?
Starcentrals posts are gold, though his blog was slightly too technical for my skill level.
Click to expand...

For an inexpensive but great light meter I recommend the Sekonic L308DC. Here's Abelcine talking some about it, with a good overview of using it:

But for an excellent light meter tutorial that covers almost everything you need to know about using a light meter, Ryan E. Walter's made a perfect tutorial:
 
Thankyou Gabel & Starcentral :-)
Ive just brought that Sekonic.

It was only 2 weeks ago I got over my inferiority complex about my camera and realised that cinematography is more about control of what you put into your camera at the front rather than the cameras technical abilities, so ive been spending cash on more lighting equipment, flags etc.
I feel like im starting from the beginning again.

Quick question if you'd humour me, when lighting a scene before the talent arrives is there a good practice for preparing without the prescence of another human to test on?
Say like a shop dummy? Or a greyboard?
Or is it best to light the room first then wait until you have the opportunity to light a real person?
 
dwyz said:
Thankyou Gabel & Starcentral :-)
Ive just brought that Sekonic.

It was only 2 weeks ago I got over my inferiority complex about my camera and realised that cinematography is more about control of what you put into your camera at the front rather than the cameras technical abilities, so ive been spending cash on more lighting equipment, flags etc.
I feel like im starting from the beginning again.

Quick question if you'd humour me, when lighting a scene before the talent arrives is there a good practice for preparing without the prescence of another human to test on?
Say like a shop dummy? Or a greyboard?
Or is it best to light the room first then wait until you have the opportunity to light a real person?
Click to expand...

The 18% grey card is useful for a number of things, and one of them is determining exposure. Most people who have not had a formal 'photo' class, may not understand what the meter is 'calibrated' to, and what to do relative to things in a scene.

The 18% grey card when exposed for the reflective meter reading, should yield a 'middle grey' in the image. In Film Film days there were specific densities of the negative, and eventually specific densities on the print...

These days one uses a Waveform Monitor, and the 'middle' grey is about 40-50% IRE(some debate about that...). Unfortunately there is some variability about this and recently in another discussion apparently Sony for some of it's Fxxx series cameras indicates the 18% grey card should yield a 38% IRE on the Waveform Monitor.

I don't know what NLE software you are using, but Premiere and FCP 7 (perhaps FCP X as well... don't know...) have software WFM displays.

This is equivalent to having to use a densitometer in the olden days for film.

Watch the video on 'calibrating ASA/ISO' value mentioned above. I've not seen it in a while but I recall it going through the process of determining an 'effective ISO' value for a specific camera, but the principles are generalizable. (A quick check indicates the Sony F3 was used, and a list of db values vs. ISO values derived.). Don't worry about the db values...

A simple 'brief' outline of the steps are:

Set up the 18% grey card under 'reasonable' lighting for 24 fps @ 1/50 @ ISO 100 @ F/5.6 (or F/8...).

Take a sample clip. Import the clip into an NLE that has a WFM display.

Verify the 'grey' card is 45% (just take this as an arbitrary 'mid value'). If the grey card is above the 45% line, the meter is giving too low a value for the indicated f-stop... in this case F/5.6... bump up the ISO, or if the meter has 'offset correction' capability offset by 1/10 (or 1/3) stop...

If the 'grey' card is below the line, the meter reading is giving a too high value for the indicated f-stop, bump the ISO value down, or again use the offset capability.

Verify the 'end points of the exposure range', by opening up two stops from this 'mid point', and you should have 'very light' grey card... close down 2 stops, and you should have a 'very dark' grey card.

Check these on the WFM display as well they should be around 10-20% for the 'dark grey card', and around 80%-90% for the 'light grey' card.

These will set your operating lighting conditions for 'good exposure'...

The 'reason' for the difference between meter reading, and actual recorded value stem from the following basic reasons.

1) The F-stop and transmission values of the lens (for normal still 35mm lenses) vary from the marked values. T-stop calibrated lenses have higher tolerances and are bench tested to determine the T values.
2) The meter while calibrated to 'factory spec', can be quite 'loose' relative to National Bureau of Standards...
3) The camera's actual sensitivity differs from what the manufacturer indicates...

But, one hopes that once on has found the calibration factors... they remain constant... across changes in light level... and time...
 
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Wow thats some heavy reading, thankyou very much, ill have to bookmark your post and come back later I feel when im ready :-)
 
dwyz said:
Thankyou Gabel & Starcentral :-)
Ive just brought that Sekonic.

It was only 2 weeks ago I got over my inferiority complex about my camera and realised that cinematography is more about control of what you put into your camera at the front rather than the cameras technical abilities, so ive been spending cash on more lighting equipment, flags etc.
I feel like im starting from the beginning again.
Click to expand...

Congrats on your purchase and may it serve you well in determining what the hell is "REALLY" going on in a scene lighting-wise. Cameras have very little to do with the final look (to some extent) and dramatic scenes or "film-like" images are more derived from what others have pointed out; set design, art direction, costumes, color palettes, and of course.... the lighting. Try watching some of the Master Class Series lighting workshops available online which I believe Kodak sponsored... also study studio photography if you really want to learn more about shaping and controlling lighting. I spent 2 years doing studio/fashion photography so I could really learn how to shape my lighting and how to control it. Now I can easily apply it to "film". ie. how/why to use large silks or diffusion panels, negative fill, effects of different modifiers and the harshness or softness of the shadows they create...

dwyz said:
Quick question if you'd humour me, when lighting a scene before the talent arrives is there a good practice for preparing without the prescence of another human to test on?
Click to expand...

I like to measure the ambient light with my meter first, then put a light in place and get the same amount of light or slightly more than I previously measured. For example I walk in a room in and measure f4 ambient light all around. I want to make sure where my talent is going to be that I get 5.6 (1 stop brigher) on him by adjusting my light so he "pops" slightly from the background. If I want more of a flat look, then I will just light the subject to match ambient, ie. f4 in my example.

What if you measure way less than f4 ambient say? Then you'll have to use lighting to RAISE the ambient and you will also need more powerful light to light your subject. A work around could be cranking your ISO. Everytime you double your ISO, you gain a stop on the lens. So if you got f2.8 ambient at ISO400, then you would get f4 at ISO800. As others have pointed out its good to work in the middle range of lenses in terms of f-stops, unless of course you're shooting with $20,000 glass.

dwyz said:
Or is it best to light the room first then wait until you have the opportunity to light a real person?
Click to expand...

You can setup your lighting in advance and tweak it once they step in or have someone else step in before your main talent steps in. (nothing is more annoying than impatient models/actors/talent on set.) The nice thing about using a light meter is you will already know if you have the right quantity of light far in advance. Minor tweaks like reducing the light can be done by using wire scrims, more diffusion material, dimmers, or moving the light further away. Getting brigher lights than you have on the other hand is harder, so again you may have to adjust your ISO.


Lighting a scene is done many different ways and by no means does this describe all of them:
- Starting from complete darkness and slowly "painting" your scene with "light". Here all windows are covered up and you start from scratch.
- Using ambient as your "base" then adding a key or fill light on your subject(s) to expose them above or below "ambient base" depending on the look you want.
- Lighting for your talent first, then lighting the rest of the set.
- Lighting by only using practicals ie. actual lights that exist in the scene, sometimes complimented by reflectors or even electrical light sources for fill or raising ambient.
- All natural light shoot; using silks or other materials or objects to block sun, and sometimes combining other light sources (reflectors or electrical) to provide key or fill.
- I'm sure there are other methods...

Other tips:
- Too much light? ie. measuring f16-f64? Stack your ND filters to get you back around f4-f8 range on your lenses.
- Consider the color temperature of your different light sources, but don't think they CAN'T be mixed. If done correctly it can create good separation of scene elements.
- Learn to light using ratios and figure out your "style" and what you like. Maybe you like subjects lit 3 stops over the background? Maybe you don't.
 
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Another big tip is to remain within a 5 stop range. What camera are you using? I'm using a GH2 and if I keep within a 5-stop range, I get a perfect picture for grading, without having blown highlights or crushed blacks, but will have detail on everything, without any noise. I can always add more contrast in post, plus bring it down a stop. While a camera like the GH2 has more along 8-stops of dynamic range, it's within that 5-stop range that I get the most detail. Even big cine-cameras likes it to keep it within a smaller range than all they can (there it would be more like a 7-stop range for perfect exposure, but still).

Say we're shooting indoors on the GH2. It has a native ISO of 640, so we would be using that and want to expose at 5.6. That value is then our "zero" stop, from which the other's will be measured. Then, for the best results, you'd want to have at the most 2 stops under and 2 stops over. That would mean that the darkest spot could read 2.8, while the brightest spot could read 11. If you keep within that range, (which is actually a much bigger range than it sounds like) you will have super clean picture you can work with, as you will have full detail and lack of noise.

I also recommend the app "Pocket Light Meter" for iPhone. Great (and free) spot meter that's quite accurate.
 
^ The reason this is true is because lets say you are shooting with a camera that offers even 12 or 13 stops of dynamic range. Should you REALLY shoot a scene with high contrast just because your camera can do it? I'd say no on that one. I'd rather control my lighting so I can capture the majority of my scene within 5-8 stops, and use the "rest" of my available stops to get more information in either my shadows or highlights area.... ESPECIALLY highlights because when they BLOW, so will your footage ;)

Check out this shot I did on a bright sunny day with sun at high angle, no clouds, and f64 on light meter. Had I not lit my subjects and just adjusted my exposure for their faces I would have had way more scene contrast (even though the camera could probably handle it) but the background would have been much more brighter, and in my opinion "video looking".

When people first saw this shot and learned I only used 8-bit 420 to shoot and then graded it, they could not believe I did not shoot it RAW or using SLOG.


(sorry lens flare is cheesy fake, I know, I know...)
 
Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge guys.
What is 'Native Iso' Gabel?
Im using a 550d, thought the camera was partly to blame with my images not reaching the artisry I was after but soon learned different after trawling dvxuser ha
Feeling a bit out of my depth now until my light meter arrives, but I just downloaded that app so I can play on that :-)

Thats an awesome shot SC, really beautiful.
 
starcentral: Precisely. I take in Shane Hurlbut's idea of treating non RAW cameras more like film: Control the lighting to keep the contrast ratio as I want them. Not to rely on that the camera can capture "everything" and then sort of do it in post, but rather keep it within a decent range and as starcentral say, have those extra stop more for backup. And for white balance I keep it at the correct value, to make sure white is white. Basically, I see it as getting a proper exposed negative where everything is correct on paper. I can then in post I can adjust the contrast, bring up saturation and add any possible kind of tint I might want.

dwyz: Native ISO is what is essentially "0" in ISO level. Sensors have a base ISO which it then boosts or subtracts from. That base is called the native ISO and being that it is always the setting with the least amount of noise and possibly best dynamic range. For the 550D the native ISO is 160 (I think), with 320 and 640 being OK too.
That app is a compliment to your Sekonic, being a spot to your incident. I use an incident most of the time, but having a spot meter is nice, as you sometimes need to check small spots, or perhaps you have a practical in frame that you fear might blow out. Say we are shooting at 5.6, you pull out the spot meter and get a reading of a desk lamp. You get a reading of 22, which is too high and it will be completely blown out in frame. Then you'd get an ND3 or ND6 on it (depending on how much you want it to blow out) to control it (or just change the bulb of course...)
 
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"Another big tip is to remain within a 5 stop range."

I mean this is fundamentally it. There is the biggest key to good DSLR cinematography in less than 10 words.
 
Which is why shooting with a DSLR isn't easy. You have to know much more about how to light them to get a good picture. That was one of the reasons the GH2 was so impressive in the Zacuto test: It had a DP who knew EXACTLY how to light for it. The cameras itself is super-clean, but has nowhere near the range of many other cameras, but keep it in a 5-stop range and few will be hard pressed to tell the difference.
 
Who needs film school when you have dvxuser :-)

I put my first thing learnt from this thread into practice last night on a music video I was shooting and that was to close down my aperture for sharpness and wow the difference was marked, clean clean clean!

I had to go ISO 400 which I try to avoid due to noise but there wasnt any, I assume thats because I kept all my light levels lowish so there wasnt a massive difference between the blacks and highs?
Used to stay on ISO 100 without fail.

Anyway, im never opening up my lenses fully again unless im forced too.
 
Yep, VOLUME of light much lower with DSLR (because of ridiculous ISO compared to film or older generation digital), but that lower volume of light has to be used very very carefully.
 
Hi, still waiting for my light meter to be delivered.
I was wondering about setting up a room in a controlled environment.
What is the basic 1st step?
Is it to decide, artistically, what camera settings you want? Then take your readings, and keep adjusting the light levels until they match (your already decided) camera aperture using your light meter?

Or is it best to light to a pleasing level in your eye, then use the light meter to dictate your cameras settings?
Or something completely different?
 
Film school has its advantages aside from filmmaking itself, ie. network opportunities, friends within the same interest/field, etc.. I am completely self taught but that has had its downsides.

As for first basic step, I think you start assessing what it is you have to work with, the location, location size, the budget, art direction, what lights you have/don't have... and all that stuff. The cheapest way to shoot is always using existing natural light but as the day changes so will your lighting and if you're working on a feature film vs a 30 second commercial then it will make a difference. On "real" films it is common to light everything indoor and outdoor to keep consistency of the look throughout the day and especially if the location will be used for multiple days, weeks, etc..

As for "how" it should look, you would discuss that with the director in advance (hopefully) for what kind of mood or look he's after. Get into reference material ie. Pokemon vs. Dark Knight Rises. You might also give him your two cents on what look he can "really" afford with the current "budget" on the project. If no budget, then probably a moot point. Or as I said earlier, run the other way if he is expecting miracles without paying for them.

As for technical stuff on the camera, you chose them based on what the director says he wants. Hopefully you established that in advance so you don't waste time on set adjusting it. Personally I would try to light for the max aperture you might need, then to lower your f-stop use ND filters. This way you may not even have to really move your lights around much say if you throw on a 85mm or 105mm from the same position to get your close-ups or medium shots. Anyway you have to assess what is best at the time, but my last bit of advise is plan in advance, plan in advance, plan in advance. Visit the location. Find out what lights are available. Find out what time of day the shoot will go on and go there and visit it and bring a compass so you know which way is East / West so you can draw some conclusion of lighting at different times of the day.

To your last question on how to light a scene, I described it below in an earlier post. Here it is again, there are 100 ways:

starcentral said:
...You can setup your lighting in advance and tweak it once they step in or have someone else step in before your main talent steps in. (nothing is more annoying than impatient models/actors/talent on set.) The nice thing about using a light meter is you will already know if you have the right quantity of light far in advance. Minor tweaks like reducing the light can be done by using wire scrims, more diffusion material, dimmers, or moving the light further away. Getting brigher lights than you have on the other hand is harder, so again you may have to adjust your ISO.


Lighting a scene is done many different ways and by no means does this describe all of them:
- Starting from complete darkness and slowly "painting" your scene with "light". Here all windows are covered up and you start from scratch.
- Using ambient as your "base" then adding a key or fill light on your subject(s) to expose them above or below "ambient base" depending on the look you want.
- Lighting for your talent first, then lighting the rest of the set.
- Lighting by only using practicals ie. actual lights that exist in the scene, sometimes complimented by reflectors or even electrical light sources for fill or raising ambient.
- All natural light shoot; using silks or other materials or objects to block sun, and sometimes combining other light sources (reflectors or electrical) to provide key or fill.
- I'm sure there are other methods...

Other tips:
- Too much light? ie. measuring f16-f64? Stack your ND filters to get you back around f4-f8 range on your lenses.
- Consider the color temperature of your different light sources, but don't think they CAN'T be mixed. If done correctly it can create good separation of scene elements.
- Learn to light using ratios and figure out your "style" and what you like. Maybe you like subjects lit 3 stops over the background? Maybe you don't.
Click to expand...
 
dwyz said:
Hi, still waiting for my light meter to be delivered.
I was wondering about setting up a room in a controlled environment.
What is the basic 1st step?
Is it to decide, artistically, what camera settings you want? Then take your readings, and keep adjusting the light levels until they match (your already decided) camera aperture using your light meter?

Or is it best to light to a pleasing level in your eye, then use the light meter to dictate your cameras settings?
Or something completely different?
Click to expand...

The camera sets the levels required. In the olden days it was the Film stock... a ASA 100 Tungsten balanced film set light color temperature and levels. These days, with Digital, one can compensate to some degree about the color temperature, but the 'best' ISO value of the camera sets the light levels. One may deviate from this 'best' but then one does so with an understanding of the consequences... such as higher ISO... more digital noise... and since an aesthetic of digital noise has not yet developed... that usually is an objectionable artifact.

If you are not the director... but the photographer... then you need to inform the director of the realities of the choice of camera, location, lighting, and if the director insists on a certain way either 1) part company. 2) do the best you can given the conditions.

There is also these days a certain sort of 'title inflation'... someone calls themself a "director of photography"... having no formal training, but maybe have shot some amount of footage, somehow some way... They may do ok, and some set of people are self taught and do acquire the technical background that one would expect from a 'director of photography'...

I tend to just call my self a 'photographer'...
 
dwyz said:
Hi, still waiting for my light meter to be delivered.
I was wondering about setting up a room in a controlled environment.
What is the basic 1st step?
Is it to decide, artistically, what camera settings you want? Then take your readings, and keep adjusting the light levels until they match (your already decided) camera aperture using your light meter?

Or is it best to light to a pleasing level in your eye, then use the light meter to dictate your cameras settings?
Or something completely different?
Click to expand...

It depends. On the needs of the shot, the limitations of the camera, and the realities of the set and lighting equipment.
There's four things that affect exposure: 1) ISO 2) Shutter speed 3) Lens aperture (f-stop and t-stop) 4) amount of light on the subject. Now you almost never want to change the shutter speed to set exposure, so that leaves you with ISO, aperture and light. Once you learn how changing these settings affects the image AND how they interact with each other, you can figure out whether you want to pick camera settings or change the light on set depending on how you want the image to look.


But if you're relatively inexperienced, I'd say to light it by eye (that is, just light the scene so that it looks good to you) and then adjust the camera settings to match. Once you get more experienced, you can start choosing the right lights to match the camera settings you want.
 
gonzo_entertainment said:
"Another big tip is to remain within a 5 stop range."

I mean this is fundamentally it. There is the biggest key to good DSLR cinematography in less than 10 words.
Click to expand...

Hi, hope its ok to regurgitate this thread, its a good learning tool for me :-)

Ive decided on my preferred camera settings so once ive used my light meter to expose a grey card properly then how do I ensure I keep within a 5 stop range?
So I can go 2 under/over, I get that, but what exactly is 1 or 2 stops?
Say I expose at f5.6?
(left my camera on set, reading from a spare lens)
Is it f4 and f2.8 under, and f8 and f11 over?

Shooting the 1st scene Friday night, feel a bit overwhelmed.
 
Gabel said:
Say we're shooting indoors on the GH2. It has a native ISO of 640, so we would be using that and want to expose at 5.6. That value is then our "zero" stop, from which the other's will be measured. Then, for the best results, you'd want to have at the most 2 stops under and 2 stops over. That would mean that the darkest spot could read 2.8, while the brightest spot could read 11. If you keep within that range, (which is actually a much bigger range than it sounds like) you will have super clean picture you can work with, as you will have full detail and lack of noise.
Click to expand...

Aha, a re read of the thread and its all becoming clear(er) :-)
 
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