Which Camera Do You Suggest?

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producerking

New member
Hi all--

If you will allow me, may I ask a question that I am sure has been asked a great many times in the past year or so (maybe longer).

I am a producer who has recently been awarded a modest budget feature length children's project. A new version of a fairy tale. This is the first of four such children's feature projects. The films all have distribution for foreign and domestic home video (DVD). As well foreign cable in place.

The company that is financing the projects wishes to create a small production company to produce the films. A company that owns all its' production and post production equipment. Thus the reason for the question.

What's the best camera for these projects?

Now I am a producer with considerable experience and have produced projects from $2,000 to $10 million. I have had the wonderful opportunity to working with talented D/Ps and camera packages ranging from Panavision to Arriflex to Sony 900 to Panasonic HVX-200 to the current project that is shooting the Panasonic HPX-500. I understand cameras and what each offers.

I would usually look for a D/P with a package, but the company wishes to own all its' gear.

So--

The question is what "affordable" (prosumer end) camera would be the best for shooting these four features? The budgets are very low, therefore economy is important. That said, I wish to use the best equipment possible at the best price.

I have done a great deal of research on this, but have yet to find on-line a thorough comparison (by real filmmakers) of the cameras available and a report of which camera produces the best results. I know that there will be favorites, different features, bells and whistles and other issues that will make one better than the other for each and every shooter. I know that the use of P&S or Red Rock adapters and primes will aid in better images. And of course I know the skill of the D/P and gaffer are all important in producing quality images.

So with all that background here is the "real" question.

I've got about $6,000 - $8,000 to spend.

What do you recommend?

I have seen plenty of projects shot on DVX-100s and the images were great. But, as I understand it, that is a (4x3) SD image. How does that compare to HDV or the HD images offered by say a Canon or JVC or Sony camera and say the Panasonic HVX-200 and the (P2 card) situation. If the images are comparable and equally as good in quality (if not squeezed) as the HD or HDV, I could buy two DVX-100Bs.

So, please let me know what you think.

Canon or Panasonic or Sony or JVC or ?

HD or SD or HDV?

1081i or 720p?

Any and everything you'd like to share.

Please forgive the long question, but I wanted to make sure you understand what I am looking for. I am new here, but can tell by the quality if information being shared I have come to the right place. I would appreciate all the advise you could offer.

In the end--

I just want to make good pictures and would love to hear what the real movies makers out there have to say on the subject.



Thanks
 
Avoid JVC. I got the HD100, had some serious issues with red frames throughout the tape. They immediately replaced the camera, and I thought that was really cool. But now that the warranty ran out (7 weeks to be exact), the LCD suddenly died with less than 50 hours on it. It was a major pain trying to contact customer support, and the bottom line was "Too bad". Panasonic is now offering a 5 year warranty on select cameras, and that would be the route I'd suggest. Not to mention, you can always find a Panny rep online right here. How convenient is that?
 
It does all come down to budget.
Generally if you're spending $x on camera, you're spending almost $x to make it usable with accessories (sticks-case-filters-rails-adapter-mattebox adds up quick). So if you want two cameras plus a resonable kit for the DP, you're talking cameras in the $2000-2500 range and that's going to make HD difficult.

I'm working with a company that just bought a HVX200 and spent about $7000 on additional accessories, and I wish they could spend more. Basically I'm saying that with $8000 you can have some fun in HD but you're not going to knock anything out of the park (I'm sure half a dozen people will point out examples to the contrary, but it doesn't count if you borrow the equipment, and yes, the worlds best shots transcend format). If your distributors are OK with a SD source, then give them an SD source. You can save a lot of money.

Personally I'd sit down with the producton co and explain that making an investment in SD now doesn't make sense (plus SD stuff in their library will be worth less in a few years) and rental is the way to go unless they are working with $10,000 and up to start buying HD gear.

If they want to invest in hardware to control rental costs, have them buy lights.
 
does that 6-8 include tripod mic lights??
If 8 is your total budget to get picture and sound, then I would suggest picking up a Canon xah1 a Bogen Tripod probly the MVB2 kit with the 503 HDV head from B@H"if anywhere besides new york you dont pay sales tax" a Rode NG2 mic with boom pole and at least a small lighting kit.
 
As a producer you know that 6-8 thousand just isn't going to get you there. I'd recommend a bigger purchasing budget or looking into a deal with a upcoming DP that owns the equipment. Sorry to be so blunt but thats just the facts.
 
Ditto what Gopher said; $8K won't be enough if you need:

Stabilization: tripods, glidecam, dolly gear
Lighting: hard/soft/softboxes/grids/reflectors/gels/snoots/scrims/C-stands/etc
Audio: Lavaliers/shotgun/boom/windjammer/digital recorder/etc
Music/Sound Effects: Royalty-free/etc
Video software: Royalty-free (eye-candy)/etc
Cables/connectors/adapters/splitters/cases/audio_absorption/backdrops/green screen/teleprompter/etc
More C-stands/chairs/tables/stands/etc
Digital on-camera storage/video monitor-DV_Rack/etc
Software - lots of software
Video: 2 cameras/special lens/filters/etc

While this is simply an off-the-cuff, incomplete list that comes to mind, I can't imagine buying this gear would be under $15K (and this would be bare-bones software, no video switcher, insurance, etc.) So if your budget is limited and you absolutely own the gear, stick with SD and begin preparing the letter's to justify why the budget was blown. Sorry we can't offer a more optimistic outlook, but now's the time to develop alternatives with your funding organization.

If you present more realistic budget, might they cancel the project?

Good luck, Michael
 
First off, may I say - "Thanks for all your input."

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. The $6K - $8K is for the camera alone. No matteboxes, filters, extra batteries, camera support, etc. Just the camera. I already have light and grip, sound pkg, dolly, tripods, heads, etc. etc.

What I was trying to find out was what camera you might recommend. I am new to this size (budget) production and usually work in 35mm. And usually work with D/Ps who either have packages or have deals. This is new to me.

I am also new to these style(s) of cameras and formats.

I have read reams of postings and articles and frankly am confused.

I have recently begun producing projects in HD, but when presented this problem a $6K - $8K camera that produced good pictures, I knew I needed to ask for help. Thus the reason for the post.

I know I can rent everything I need from equipment houses, but the "money guys" wish to own and I am trying to accommodate.

So what I am asking is.

Of the cameras (formats, etc.) mentioned above, what is the best way to go. In my budget I can afford the Panasonic HVX-200 (sans P2 cards) which most people tend to like. But if I can shoot HDV and get an equally acceptable picture (with the understanding that productions values are high and the show is well lit) I could afford to, as mentioned above, buy two Sony HDV cameras. I know it is not Hi-Def, but do you know of filmmakers who have produced projects on HDV and gotten in distribution?

I know--

After these shows they will probably upgrade anyway. But for now, I just want to hear from real filmmakers about what camera(s) they feel can produce a quality product.



Thanks for your time and advise.


All the Best!
 
producerking said:
Of the cameras (formats, etc.) mentioned above, what is the best way to go. In my budget I can afford the Panasonic HVX-200 (sans P2 cards) which most people tend to like. But if I can shoot HDV and get an equally acceptable picture (with the understanding that productions values are high and the show is well lit) I could afford to, as mentioned above, buy two Sony HDV cameras. I know it is not Hi-Def, but do you know of filmmakers who have produced projects on HDV and gotten in distribution?
Click to expand...
The capture medium is not as important as knowing how to light, and knowing how to tell a story. That's what will get you distribution. There's plenty of stuff that got shot on DV and got distribution, especially when the end result was DVD anyway.

Between the two, you're better off with the Panasonic. HDV lacks the color fidelity of DVCPRO HD, and is a highly-compressed format that is currently not natively supported by many of the major editing packages. I don't know of anyone, for example, who edits HDV in Final Cut as HDV, always having to transcode on import. Whereas the P2 files work natively. Overall the workflow is more widely supported, and all else being equal, that's the tipping point IMO.
 
There are going to be external issues with most of your choices. Go with a DVX/HVX, and now you need to worry about the whole P2 workflow, trying to find enough cards, dumping cards so you can do the next shot. You go with the Canons or JVC, you will have problem with decks reading their odd formats, unless you want to use the camera as a deck. It's just not as simple as it used to be. How much can you invest into the workflow of whatever camera you choose?
 
Well I vote Panasonic, too, but seriously, you're in a Panasonic forum, so take that advice with a grain of salt.
I would say that if you've got pro lighting, then be sure to get a 35mm adapter. With a good DP that will make a HUGE difference. Plus then you don't have to shop for sensor size when you buy your cam, whatever you get.
HDV isn't terrible, btw. It holds up remarkably well considering the bitrate.
 
I have shot with all the prosumers, for my money it would be the HVX200. It just gives you so much more lattitude in post then any of the HDV formats. I'd still try to stretch the budget to get a lens adapter for it as well. I shot a feature this summer with the HVX and an M2. It is a light hog, I was down to ASA 125 with the adapter from an ASA320 with out the adapter, and that was with fast nikon primes. The picture has turned out nice, it went soft in a few low light scenes, but only as you would expect. It is holding up well in CC and motion stabilization and looks good projected. Once compressed Down to DVD you can't see anything that would make you take notice.

I don't know if anyone has done a side to side shoot out, but this tidbit alone is enough info for me. HDV is 25Mbs HDCPRO is 100Mbs, thats 4x the information that your editor is going to love. No matter how good the HDV folks claim thier compression is, I have seen artifacts (especially in motion) that just make me cringe. But again this is the panasonic forum.
 
I'm blown away by the features of the new HPX500, but $14,000 is way out of my budget, and then I would have to budget in how much more to migrate to P2? I'm still not sold on that workflow, regardless of the results.
 
Since your distribution format is DVD, and CAble, a HD master would definintly be desireable. this way, you can sub sample the image to SD with more fidelity and the post production process's dammage to the image will be less noticeable. For DVD and SD cable release, HDV will be fine. Any image artifacts will be mostly eradicated upon down conversion, and since its resolution is higher it will allow for more post production image reframing and resizing without degrading the final SD image. Im talking about post production zooms, and crops.

The XHa1 is a good choice, solid 24p like acquisition, 3400$ cost, useable dynamic range, and a nice crisp picture. An hvx200 would be preferable as the 4:2:2 color 1080p and 720p down res beautifully to a 4:2:0 DVD. But the initial operating costs are higher and it can require an additional crew member to jockey cards during a production. That being said the HDV tape workflow is prone to dropouts and requires more money in the post realm, because of the logging process and trandscoding to intraframe editing codec. The savings of one camera's strength is offset by the costs where the other lacks. so in reality its 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

The HVX is a more flexible machine, offering an AMAZING DVCpro50 option. which makes for GORGEOUS DVD's, but doesnt stand up to a HD broadcast on HD cable.
the 720p looks great, sharp, but it can fall apart under very heavy Color correction, though it is a space saver and offers 40 min record time on 2 8gig cards. The 108024p is optimal for this purpose. Its sharp, low compression, and can be down ressed to beautiful 720p, DVCpro50 SD, and DVD/DV formats. its trade off is the file size and record time on the P2 card.

Think about where you have "it easy". Do you have ample crew? then the HVX200 is a solid choice, is your post production crew more easily accesable, then the time saved shooting to HDV tape will benefit you because the logging/capture/trandscoding process for a feature wont trouble you.

its more important to examine where your produciton companies strengths are, and see which workflow fits best. Image wise they are all about the same. its the useability that determines the choices you should make.
 
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