Which cam for me?

J

Jack.M

Member
I currently have an HV30, but I'm bored stupid with it and would like to learn how to use a "real" camera for the purpose of making films, so it's time for an upgrade. I was gonna get an XH A1 until coming across the XH A1 vs HVX200 article on this site; after reading that, the XH A1 seems like a silly choice. So now, is the HVX200 the best camera that I can buy used for $3000 +/-? Or is the article outdated and there's something better out there for not a whole lot more money?
 
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It's HVX200.

And yeah, I highly recommend it, but it depends on what you want to use it for. For most every purpose the HVX is the best camera in its price range I've used.
 
Someone just mentioned that the HMC151 is near-identical and costs a lot less, although I can't seem to find any places online (not even eBay!) that sell it... Is it worth looking into?
 
I'd consider the canon 5Dmk2 as well. I've been asked this question several times recently and I jumped to the conclusion that a used HVX200 was the way to go, but I've played with the 5dmk2 since, and it's no longer clear to me.

Both have serious pros and cons, but I'd put it pretty even between the HVX200 and the 5D.
 
also, i don't know the status of the HMC151, but last i heard it used the less than attractive AVCHD compression codec, which is a significant knock against it. DVCPRO HD seems a safer way to go.
 
Jack, where are you located? If you're in the US or Canada, it's the HMC150 (there is a whole section dedicated to it higher up on this website). The 151 is PAL-land. Another camera to look at is the HPX170... it's effectively the HMC150, but with P2 and DVCProHD, and a few extra whistles and bells.

As far as AVCHD being less than attractive than DVCProHD, it depends on what you mean by "less than attractive". I've seen AVCHD next to DVCProHD and couldn't tell the difference. It is an extremely good, if highly compressed, codec. And to be honest, all things being equal I'd rather use AVCHD out of a HMC150 over DVCProHD out of an HPX170 or HVX200a. I can't justify the extra costs of P2 for the marginal trade-offs for DVCProHD in this price range of cameras. But that's me and my situation, and everyone's situation is unique.

Jack, I would *HIGHLY* recomend you go up to the HMC150 and the HPX170/HVX200 sections of this website and look through there. There is a wealth of information on all three cameras to help you decide which is best suited for you. Also, go look on Vimeo for footage. Yes, it's compressed for the web... but it will help give you an idea of what these cameras are capable of.
 
So how does the HVX200 compare to the HMC150? I heard the 150 is slightly inferior and costs less, but they seem to cost around the same on eBay - around $3k used. Would that make the HVX200 the clear choice between the two (putting aside the cost of P2 cards)?
 
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Mike Harvey said:
As far as AVCHD being less than attractive than DVCProHD, it depends on what you mean by "less than attractive". I've seen AVCHD next to DVCProHD and couldn't tell the difference. It is an extremely good, if highly compressed, codec.
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Good point. let me put it this way, if Jack's unsure way he might want one over the other, than he should be more than happy with AVCHD. If he does a lot of grading or compositing, go for DVCproHD.
 
Jack.M said:
So how does the HVX200 compare to the HMC150? I heard the 150 is slightly inferior and costs less, but they seem to cost around the same on eBay - around $3k used. Would that make the HVX200 the clear choice between the two (putting aside the cost of P2 cards)?
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Define "inferior". It's a subjective term. What's inferior to you may not be inferior to me.

The HVX can shoot DV to DV tape. The HMC has no tape. The HVX (as well as the HPX170) does DV, DVCpro25, DVCPro50, and DVCProHD. The HMC is AVCHD only. HVX has Firewire out and can live stream via Firewire. AVCHD doesn't work with Firewire. The HVX has certain features like variable framerates (12fps-60fps) that AVCHD simply can't do (24fps, 30fps, 60fps only). Both (if talking about the 200a and not the 200) cams have the same CCD block, as does the HPX. The HPX and HMC also have the same lens. DVCProHD has better colorspace, while AVCHD has higher resolution... but you're talking about cameras that use pixel shifted CCD's so it's more or less a wash. DVCProHD is I-frame, AVCHD is long-GOP.

And you really can't not figure in the cost of P2. A couple of P2 cards could set you back a few thousand dollars. A couple of SDHC cards... maybe $150. You can also buy a new HMC for around the price of a used HVX.

The question ultimately boils down to... do you really need DVCProHD, or is AVCHD good enough for you? And to answer that, you really need to go look in the HMC150 and HPX170/HVX200 forums, as it's getting into territory that's not appropriate for this part of the website. Trust me, go there and you'll find more info than you ever wanted to know.

[EDIT] Actually, there is a thread exactly like this going on in the HMC150 forum http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=178387
 
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Thanks for the feedback guys. To clarify: I couldn't care less what codec the camera uses since the ONLY reason I'm getting it is to learn how to use a "real" camera with manual controls. I will shoot absolutely nothing other than test footage with this camera. I just want something with a ton of customizable manual controls, and the HVX200 seems to have just a tiny bit more to offer in that department than the XH A1.
 
Then honestly, go with the HMC150. It's every bit as tweakable as the HVX, plus it's a less expensive way to figure out a tapeless work flow than going the P2 route. And you may find that it's every bit the "real" camera itself and may want to start shooting stuff other than just test footage.
 
Jack.M said:
To clarify: I couldn't care less what codec the camera uses since the ONLY reason I'm getting it is to learn how to use a "real" camera with manual controls. I will shoot absolutely nothing other than test footage with this camera. I just want something with a ton of customizable manual controls,
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hmmm, well if that's the case you can get a much cheaper camera than the HMC150.

...Only test footage?
 
Right, I'm only buying this camera to learn how to use a "real" camera. I'll be using a RED (which I don't have yet unfortunately) for all the actual filming next year. But I need to practice since I don't wanna get it and, having only used an HV20, not know what to do with it. Someone on another forum suggested the JVC HD100 since it has a manual lens and resembles a "real" camera more. One drawback is that it only does 720p, but that may not be a big issue for me since the footage isn't going anywhere. Would be nice to be able to get a slightly more modern cam with a manual lens though, but how much would that cost? The JVC is $3k on eBay, and I could maybe do $1k more.
 
Well if you just want it to learn. I would go with the Canon XL2. It is standard definition but has interchangeable lenses and all manual controls.
 
lairhair said:
Well if you just want it to learn. I would go with the Canon XL2. It is standard definition but has interchangeable lenses and all manual controls.
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get an xl1! its has all the same controls as the xl2, and the footage isn't going anywhere, why spend the extra money?

HOWEVER! because we now know you're going to shoot with RED, I think you might be better of buying a dSLR. You can learn about using manual 35mm glass and the optical characteristics of those lenses (field of view, depth of field) and more importantly applying the strength of RAW shooting, which is what RED is built around.

I think that will serve you much better than shooting on any 1/3" miniDV camera.
 
Jack.M said:
I was gonna get an XH A1 until coming across the XH A1 vs HVX200 article on this site; after reading that, the XH A1 seems like a silly choice.
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Thanks for the feedback guys. To clarify: I couldn't care less what codec the camera uses since the ONLY reason I'm getting it is to learn how to use a "real" camera with manual controls. I will shoot absolutely nothing other than test footage with this camera. I just want something with a ton of customizable manual controls, and the HVX200 seems to have just a tiny bit more to offer in that department than the XH A1.
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The XH-A1 is definitely not a "silly choice". As for manual controls and tweaks the A1 definitely stands up to the HVX, as it has tons of tweakability. You can shoot a flat neutral image or tweak the A1's image settings to your hearts content, all within the camera.

As for variable frame rates, the HVX beats the A1 there, but still, shooting 60i at a shutter speed of 1/120 and post processing will get you great slow motion. The HVX only goes up to 60p anyways, and personally, that is perfect for many shots, but not so overly dramatic like a 120 fps is. If the HVX went higher, say 80 fps or 120, then it would be a different ballgame all together.

Of course the HMC150 does the A1 one better by having a 720 60p mode, but still, the slow motion you can get out of an A1 is great. I personally feel it is plenty good enough until we get stuff like the Scarlet and it's supposed 120+ fps modes. Either that or buy a Red One.

The A1 should also do better in low light than the first gen HVX200. Not sure about the newer Panasonic cams, but the consensus is that the HMC150 is a bit better in low light, so I would guess an HVX200A would be as good or better than the A1 in this department. Bottom line though, I've used my A1 at up to 12db of gain. The grainy video noise is not too bad at all, and in fact feels kinda like film grain. The only times you will need this much gain is if you shoot weddings and events. If you are making a film, which entails setting up controlled lighting, I doubt you will need to go above 6db of gain on the A1, and 6db is pretty much indistinguishable from 0db.

As for tape versus P2 and SD cards for the HMC150, tape is not perfect, but it is not horrible either. The downside with the HMC is that it doesn't have an SD or DV mode. You have to shoot everything in HD and downconvert later. With the A1 and HVX/HPX models you have SD options in addition to the HD ones. Having said all that though, I would love to have a tape and tapeless memory card option in the same camera. The only camera that does both is the HVX200.

Something to note, the A1 has an excellent feature that the others don't have, a manual iris ring, as opposed to the HVX that has a small dial for iris control. Now, you might be saying that it is not a big deal, until you use it. I don't ever want to go back to the old way with the tiny little iris dial near the bottom of the camera like the Sony and Panasonic cams have (granted the EX-1 and EX-3 are exceptions).

Sure those work, but the one the A1 has is so much easier to use and is just a great piece of ergonomic design. Hopefully Sony and Panasonic will add a full iris ring to their upcoming camera models in the near future and it will then become a standard feature on cameras from there on out.

Not saying that the Panasonic cameras aren't great, they are. As an A1 owner I just wanted to point out that both it and the Panasonic stuff are really very similar when it comes down to the basics, while each camera has a few special capabilities and features that set it apart from one another. Bottom line is that you really can't go wrong with any of these.
 
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