Where to go to school?

Re: Where to go to school?

[quote author=oggproductions link=board=news;num=1087913677;start=75#79 date=07/17/04 at 17:16:34]I say save the money you are going to dump into film school and use it to make a movie.

Film schools are overpriced and over rated. They teach you how to make movies the Hollywood way which means expensive and time consuming.

Go out and buy two books.

First one is "From Reel to Deal" by Dov Siemens. Then go out and buy Robert Rodriguez book "Rebel Without a Crew".

"Rebel Without a Crew" is in my opinion the best movie making book ever published.

Then sink more money into DVD's and listen to the director commentaries. Ed Burns, Kevin Smith and Robert Rodriguez have some of the best commentaries on their break-thru films. This is REAL film school because they did it.

Start off with "The Brothers McMullen", "Clerks" and "El Mariachi". With those three DVD's, you will learn more than 10 years of film school with an investment of about $30.00.

You will learn guerilla filmmaking at it's finest. How to make a GREAT movie with little to no money. It's all about telling a story, not how much of a budget you have, or can get.

But remember this, if you can't tell a story, then no amount of film school, book reading, or DVD watching will help you.[/quote]

Except that neither "Clerks" nor "The Brothers McMullen" nor "El Mariachi" are captial-GREAT films . . . ::)
 
Re: Where to go to school?

[quote author=oggproductions link=board=news;num=1087913677;start=75#79 date=07/17/04 at 17:16:34]I say save the money you are going to dump into film school and use it to make a movie.[/quote]



Thats easier said than done. I too am looking at Full Sail and deciding on whether or not to go there. My parents are paying for most of school and theres no way they would give me the 40,000 i would use for school, to go make a movie. If the movie failed (which is likely), i would be done. After reading all this talk about Full Sail im getting a little scared about going there...i hear some people saying its horrible and a bad decision, and some people saying they are doing fine after going there and how its a good school, im just totally confused right now and unsure of myself...i hate this
 
Re: Where to go to school?

[quote author=streetsk8erdc link=board=news;num=1087913677;start=75#81 date=07/17/04 at 20:43:04]



Thats easier said than done. I too am looking at Full Sail and deciding on whether or not to go there. My parents are paying for most of school and theres no way they would give me the 40,000 i would use for school, to go make a movie. If the movie failed (which is likely), i would be done. After reading all this talk about Full Sail im getting a little scared about going there...i hear some people saying its horrible and a bad decision, and some people saying they are doing fine after going there and how its a good school, im just totally confused right now and unsure of myself...i hate this[/quote]

What state are you a resident of, and have you done your FAFSA. Also, what was your SAT / ACT and do you have a reel. Finally, what was your GPA in school. You may be able to go free to the school of your choice.
 
Re: Where to go to school?

[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=news;num=1087913677;start=75#80 date=07/17/04 at 20:06:38]

Except that neither "Clerks" nor "The Brothers McMullen" nor "El Mariachi" are captial-GREAT films . . . ::)
[/quote]


Well Ed Burns, Kevin Smith and Robert Rodriguez are major Hollywood players and filmmakers now (did I mention millionaires?) all because of their little films..........and we're here on this forum. Should tell you something.

Just do what they did and go out and make your movie....
 
Re: Where to go to school?

[quote author=streetsk8erdc link=board=news;num=1087913677;start=75#81 date=07/17/04 at 20:43:04]



...... theres no way they would give me the 40,000 i would use for school, to go make a movie. If the movie failed (which is likely)[/quote]

You can't think that way and be a filmmaker. If you already believe your film is going to fail, then it will.

Ed Burns wrote a movie about three Irish-American brothers dealing with life and love. He just re-wrote every Woody Allen film ever made. He believed in his story and he believed in the power of filmmaking. He made a simple, yet enjoyable movie that catapulted him into being a major Hollywood filmmaker.

Kevin Smith made a movie about a convenience store clerk. A subject he knew something about. He too believed in his story and the power of filmmaking. Smith is not my favorite director and I don't care for his movies, but he is Hollywood now.

Robert Rodriguez made a movie that was intended for the straight-to-video Mexican market. He believed he had a great movie for that market. Come to find out, he made a movie every Hollywood studio started a bidding war over. None of them thought they would get where they are today, but they didn't think their movies would fail.
 
Re: Where to go to school?

Robert Rodriguez was an alumni of UT Austin, although not of the film school.

Ed Burns, who started with small movies (as din Vin Diesal, and like Vin Diesal was given a part in SPR because of that) was a graduate of Hunter College.

Kevin Smith only went for a year to college, but his main partner and producer was a film school type.

Not going to college does not mean someone will be a good director.
 
Re: Where to go to school?

[quote author=oggproductions link=board=news;num=1087913677;start=75#83 date=07/17/04 at 21:27:52]


Well Ed Burns, Kevin Smith and Robert Rodriguez are major Hollywood players and filmmakers now (did I mention millionaires?) all because of their little films..........and we're here on this forum. Should tell you something.
[/quote]

Didn't say they weren't. I only responded to this part:

You will learn guerilla filmmaking at it's finest. How to make a GREAT movie with little to no money.
Click to expand...

Like I said, none of those were great films. Their later films were better . . . when they had money.
 
Re: Where to go to school?

Also, it should be noted that for every successful director which does not come from a college, there are a dozen that can be named that do:

Paul Verhoeven - University of Leiden
Steven Spielberg - California State University
Trey Parker - University of Colorado
Matt Stone - University of Colorado
John Frankenhiemer - Williams College
Anthony Minghella - University of Hull
Robert Zemeckis - University of Southern California, Northern Illinois University

The point being, more directors come from college than do not, the same goes for almost all above the line jobs. Below the line it is more even, with the trades being mostly without college education. One interesting thing is that most directors, producers, and writers, do not come from film colleges (although film colleges do produce some. They usually come from liberal arts programs of all descriptions, many have english degrees, literature degrees, history degrees, and communications degrees.

In other fields, it is more so. The RTNDA reports that about 99% of all news directors in the nation hav college educations. Documentary producers and directors are almost universally with degrees. Oddly enough, sports coverage people tend to be degreed.

This is not to say that not having a degree will end your career. No one cares if the guy shooting their wedding has a degree or not, but a college degree or attendence at college for a couple of years is a common denominator above the line in most production environments.
 
Re: Where to go to school?

If i were given $40,000 to make a movie or to go to school, i'd go with school without even thinking about it.

I've made connections for life there, and hope to work with them all once we've practiced the craft more and graduated. Anyone who says you cant make independant films in film school is wrong. Yes I was taught the "hollywood" way, but I was in no way forced to use it. Actually, 90% of the films i've seen at school are independant. I've also been taught what has worked in the past, and what hasnt. I dont know how too many film schools work, but in SDSU, you're given a lot of freedom to express yourself on film, and get an excellent education alongside.

I still cant believe people are bashing on education... People just dont realize how precious it really is.
 
Re: Where to go to school?

Opinions have been professed both in support of and in opposition to “film school education”. Let’s not start saying that people here are bashing education, because modern “film school” education should be considered a separate entity.

If someone were to read this thread from start to finish, they’d probably get a well-rounded appraisal of the options and issues surrounding the issue. In the end, the decision is one that can be made only by the individual through careful appraisal of one’s own personality, needs, goals, options, and desires.

It’s great that everyone has an opinion about film school, but it’s beginning to feel like this horse is dead.

No one here is going to be able to make the decision for anyone else, much like no one else is going to be there to make sure you succeed after making your choice. Without any back-door nepotism, you’re going to be on your own in one way or another.

Repeatedly citing the unlikely rise of Terrantino and Smith is just as damaging as the insistence that your college will open doors for you. Both of those results are unlikely unless you make them likely. The personal network you build in college isn’t going to get you jobs if you’re not good at what you do, and the saved tuition you dump into your indie film will probably result in a film no one will ever see. Without a realistic and measured approach to either option, both are going to be disappointing to you in the long run.

If I ask you where you want to be, you better have an answer. If I ask you what you’re going to do to get there, and your response is anything...

Anything is nothing. A hazy plan is no plan. Undefined desires are unreachable desires. If “anything” is your method, then you have no method, and the sooner you realize that, the sooner you can fix it.

While I regret attending Full Sail for many different reasons, I feel that one of their slogans contains the most important piece of information for anyone out there trying to get somewhere. It’s an axiom from piloting:

Attitude determines altitude.

Back then, I thought it was a cute little truism, but it took me years to realize that altitude is not a destination...it’s a measurement. Altitude says nothing about where you are, it says nothing about where you’re going...it only serves to show you the distance between where you started and where you ended up.

In this business, you wind up having very little control about where you go, but your attitude will do so much to determine how far you go.

Anyone who’s still weighing their options needs to re-read this entire thread from start to finish. If there’s still no clear choice after reading all these opinions, then you’re just not ready to make the choice.

The only thing you can do then is to try and figure out why you’re not ready.
 
Re: Where to go to school?

Moderator - is it possible to export this thread as a separate document and post it somewhere? These post cover pretty much all aspects from many perspectives -talent/goals/school/ambition/hands-on... should be required reading for anyone thinking about a career in moving images..

/magnus
 
Re: Where to go to school?

I'm 44 yrs. old and because of health reasons I could no longer do construction.

I'm in school in Lansing, MI. majoring in media technology ( T.V production, radio, etc. ). But I'm also going into my second semester of film, stage directing, and acting as well. I'm pretty sure that I'll be taking at least one screenwritng class before I leave. I was told a long time ago that it is best to know a little about a lot of things. Already I have had T.V prod. jobs come my way but at this point I'm doing a little something else. Michael Moore and Bruce Campbell are from around this area just for the sake of saying.

Think of this forum and others like it as a school of sorts. If it wasn't for these sites, I wouldn't have half the info as I do now about my 100A. Now all I have to do some trial and error which is the basis of all learning.

You'll also be amazed at what you can find at bookstores and on the web about cinematographers and their techniques as well as effective production and direction for your creative outlet. Did you know that certain actors and actresses have refused work if they didn't have a particular cinematographer ? Lighting is important too.

Try looking at a community college in you area as well. Thats what I attend and it has very much to offer. Education is good if it is not limited. Home education can yield some pretty awesome results too with a G5, Final Cut Pro, and maybe Combustion 3. Thats my next move.

Since you've been at it for a while now, maybe you should enter some stuff at www. TriggerStreet.com. That may help somewhat in your decision making . . .
 
Re: Where to go to school?

Hey guys, there's a lot of really inspiring stuff here. I agree with you Reg59, you've basically gotta be a jack-of-all-trades because when it comes down to it, whether you've got a 1 man crew, or a 100 man crew, you've still gotta make sure you know EVERYTHING thats going on. Luckily you can divide the work up depending on which stage of production you're in. Lately I've been thinking about college and I realized even though I love movies I'm gonna learn them on my own and spend my money getting a Bachelor of Communications in Professional Writing degree. Looking back at my school history, I realized I was always getting compliments for my writing, so I think this is the way to go. Now I think that'll benefit my movies because I'll learn to hone my writing skills so that when it comes down to it, the way I tell my stories will be solid. Since writing (words) and editing (footage) are basically the same thing, all I need are solid visuals to work with (which should be no problem once I get good at this DVX :)). Btw, I'd like to hear from anyone whose gotten a Bachelor of Communications in Professional Writing degree, since I've still got about 6 months before I enroll in the class and I'd like to see what people thought of it. :)

Edalgo
 
Re: Where to go to school?

[quote author=J_Barnes link=board=news;num=1087913677;start=90#92 date=07/20/04 at 06:05:23]
Repeatedly citing the unlikely rise of Terrantino and Smith is just as damaging ...

...and the saved tuition you dump into your indie film will probably result in a film no one will ever see.
[/quote]
When I quoted Tarantino (well, actually I paraphrased :)) , I wasn't implying that the resulting film would be audience-worthy. A first film has the same remote chance of success whether it was shot in or out of film school. The argument that I've heard -- from Tarantino, Rodriguez, and others -- is that the money spent on shooting your first full length feature will yield more valuable filmmaking lessons than sitting through a bunch of lectures and learning the "Hollywood" way of doing things, which, incidentally, is a system deliberately designed to make access extremely difficult.

Rodriguez in particular makes a compelling case *against* film school in his book, Rebel Without a Crew, claiming that film school teaches all of the industry practices that are inefficient and expensive -- exactly what an Indie player doesn't need to learn. And you don't have to spend $40,000 on your first film. Rodrigues shot his first full-length feature, El Mariachi, for $7,000, and expected it to be horrible. He was doing it only to educate himself. It was through luck, and his own understimated skill in filmmaking, that resulted in his first-film success.

For any Indie-wannabees that need inspiration or guidance on how to shoot a film ultra-cheap, I highly recommend Rodriguez' book, Rebel Without A Crew, because it shows the advantages of *not* trying to shoot a film using normal Hollywood procedures.
 
Re: Where to go to school?

Yes, but -- there's a world of difference between "do what I say" and "do what I did".  Rodriguez' book is fascinating, but you have to acknowledge a few things first: Rodriguez DID go to film school, and he was an accomplished (and published) comic strip artist (which teaches you how to make a story with pictures), and he'd shot thirty short films on a VHS camcorder and edited them deck-to-deck, which is crucial experience for learning how to think of a story in pictures, how to shoot in a sequence that is efficient and makes for the best use of time and energy, and how to get only the shots you need.

If someone picked up Rodriguez' book and read "forget film school, just go shoot something" then I can guarantee that the film they shot would be utter crapola.  If they instead did what Rodriguez DID (as opposed to what he SAYS), they'd shoot dozens and dozens of short films, win top prizes at film festivals, then go to film school, and THEN shoot their first feature.  And maybe then they'd get the kind of success he's had.

Heck, just read the introduction to the book and he says it right out: "What I needed was as much practice making features as I had gotten making short films.  I realized it was the experience that had gotten me where I was.  If you want to learn the guitar, you don't take a couple of guitar classes and expect to do anything innovative.  You practice in your garage until your fingers bleed.  I had done that with my home movies.  I made over thirty short narrative movies, edited, with opening and closing credits, sound effects, and music."

If someone says "Forget film school, take that money and shoot a feature instead?"  That's crazy talk.  Anybody who does that would be foolish.  Start out small.  Practice until your fingers bleed.  Win top awards at festivals across the country.  Win screenwriting awards at screenwriting contests.  Consider going to film school as well, although it may not be necessary.  Once you've done all that, THEN you can try to make a movie.

Taking shortcuts before paying your dues will likely lead to failure.
 
Re: Where to go to school?

Hey Reg...are you attending Lancing Community College? I'm thinking about going there for film after I get my Assoc. in Animation.

How is it there? Is it something worth while? Whats bad and good about it?
 
Re: Where to go to school?

wow...had lunch today w/ a former classmate of mine...just found out one of our professor's passed away last year...i'm really sad because he was not only a great instructor but a really great person. :'(
 
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