Where to go to school?

Re: Where to go to school?

I think the most important reason to go to film school is the people you meet--your fellow students. If you want to work in feature films, I would go to one of the Major film schools in Los Angeles: USC, UCLA, CalArts, Art Center.
While I was attending CalArts, I did a lot of editing on a lot of student projects, which turned into a few professional gigs outside of school. After graduating, it was a fellow classmate that recommended me for the editing position on a feature, that turned into a 17 year profession. By going to film school you put yourself into a community of fellow filmmakers that can be priceless--as long as you go to the right school.

There's a book called "Film School Confidential" that breaks down the various film schools very effectively. While the book focuses on Masters programs, it will give you a good idea of what might fit your needs in undergraduate work.

My 2 cents is to go to a good school, get a well rounded film education, and meet some people!

Good Luck!

Dan
www.DVcameraRigs.com
 
Re: Where to go to school?

This seems to be a very recurrent theme, and makes a lot of sense. I know there are a lot of people who say "I went to film school, it was a complete waste of time"... but how many of those people went to AFI/USC/NYU/UCLA/etc? How many of those graduates would say the same thing?

I have no idea what the answer is, but it would be interesting to find out.
 
Re: Where to go to school?

School is not only about learning filmmaking, but getting exposure to other areas that are related to the process; literature, music, English writing (or related language), physics, art, graphics, design, architecture, etc. I am not saying a degree in all of these is necessary but taking the basic and intermediate classes will give you ideas that you may never have considered. Also, understanding these other crafts will allow for better collaboration and communication in a filmmaking environment which is the one art form that is comprises of so many art forms in a singe medium.

Michael
 
Re: Where to go to school?

take your dvx and make a movie
send it to film festivals
get distribution
buy yourself a nice apartment
make another movie
festivals
distribution
buy yourself a house
etc
 
Re: Where to go to school?

But Voytek, the problem with that plan is, without some education, almost every DVX movie people make is going to stink and not get distribution, which dead-ends the plan right then and there.

Sounds good in theory, but in practice it's extremely difficult to pull off.
 
Re: Where to go to school?

I think everything that's being said in this forum is true, that's why it's such a complex issue to dissect.

I think one of the major problems with filmmaking school is that it aims to turn out filmmakers rather then specifically trained technicians and craftspeople. Filmmaking is indeed an art form, however there aren't ANY "filmmakers" working in the industry. We have directors, writers, editors, cinematographers, designers, producers, and their associated support positions...but there are no filmmakers in that quasi-undefined sense of artistry that seems to be attributed to the term. So in turning out this horde of "filmmakers", we have this huge body of people out there who have received a general education in production arts and technologies, indeed jacks of all trades but masters of none.

No one will openly say this, but the main reason why film school graduates are so looked down upon in the industry is because it's assumed that whatever PA job or Grip position they're given, they will view it as a short-term hassle in their path towards directing.

Directing should be seen as a career with no ladder. There is no realistic way anyone can expect to work their way up to directing. It's like starting in the mailroom and becoming president of the company, sure it's happened a couple of times in history, but it isn't going to happen to you.

I think that if I can say anything to a person considering this industry as a career, it's to have realistic goals and expectations from the outset. If you don't, it's incredibly easy to become jaded and dejected once you realize that your goals weren't easily attained. I know this from countless years of experience, there's no group of people more miserable then unemployed film school graduates.

Decide early what you want your role to be in this industry and peruse that. If you want to work in cinematography, begin attaining a serious education in still photography. If you want to work in design, begin getting a formal education in design outside of film. If you want to have a support position, start PAing for free as soon as you can. If you want to produce, start interning at studios, production companies, and talent agencies and seek out relationships with deep pockets.

Writing and editing are the two disciplines that I believe benefit the most from a formal education, but care should be taken to insure that whatever school you choose is tailored to those pursuits.

If you insist on being a "filmmaker, in the sense that you want to write, direct, produce and shoot your own projects, take a moment and ask yourself why you want to be the only artist in a collaborative medium. What in you makes you think that you need to be the sole author of your works?

Photography, painting, and writing are all much cheaper art forms then film, and they allow for a singular creative force where film does not.

Film is a work-for-hire industry, and whatever creative energy you put into a project will ultimately be under the guidance and restrictions of someone else, be it a director, a producer, or a financier. You will not find unrestrained creative fulfillment unless you are independently wealthy, and can finance your own pursuits.

Of course, I’m not working right now either, so you can take everything I say with a grain of salt. Or a box of it, if need be.
 
Re: Where to go to school?

I went to Full Sail and got my film degree. It's a good school and you learn on the best equipment out there. I got into North Carolina School of the Arts, but went to Full Sail instead. NCSA is too oriented around theory and I wasn't. I just wanted to shoot movies and that is what you do there. There are a lot of crappy classes and some of the teachers and lab instructors are a little shady, but overall most knew their stuff. Oh yeah, there Placement Department is really crappy, so don't base your decision on those 80% job placement numbers they throw out at you. If you got any questions about the school feel free to PM me.
 
Re: Where to go to school?

I want to point out something that may have been missed in the rush, and why college is perhaps the best route for an aspiring filmmaker or video producer (and realize that over half my career was done without a college degree or even a high school diploma).

First, if you go to the right college, you can get some amazing experience working with some first rate equipment. In the digital age, any college that has a couple of Power Macintosh computers and a few DVX100 has a great foundation for you doing anything you want. The cost of the college is rarely what it would cost you to rent the things for an entire year, AND you get a personal trainer to look at and critique your work plus have the option to recruit free labor for your projects.

Next, remember that all of the jobs are not in Hollywood. You can work in sports, in documentary (a growing field with History, Discover, and that lot going crazy for content), selling women's underwear or cubic zirconia, and it is all paid. But many of those jobs require that you have an education. The reason is simple -- who wants a producer or editor on a high powered documentary that is pig ignorant. Think of all of those dumb courses you take outside of film as simply possible ideas for a new program or documentary. Everything in our industry can and will be automated except for the people who are in the front lines of the creative and content. Also, writing is such an important skill that I am surprised more people do not audit english courses just to get the benefit of a grammar and content coach.

What college would I attend:

First, you get from college what you put into college, so if you go and do not immediately worm your way into the communications or film department and spend every waking hour plotting how to use the equipment just one more time by any devious method available, then you are wasting a opportunity. The big directors all have one thing in common, and that is by the first year of college they were finagling college resources in any way possible to make movies.

Second, my opinion. Most of the big state colleges and even some of the biggies like Syracuse and that lot are very uneven in their treatment of students. If you are an "in group" student and upper division (junior or senior) then you will get some very good access to equipment and faculty. If not, you wont. The better ones include UNCG, Miami, USC and UCLA, and NYU, and all cost an arm and a leg, and are hard to get into. If you have the grades, money, and desire though I would look at them and see if you can get into them AND get into the in group. If you you will have an unmatched chance at a great education.

I would more likely choose a second tier school or one that has a new program or a small program, based upon meeting the major professor, and in the process trying to use my work to get a scholarship. Some unlikely colleges have real nice programs that are not "hip" but produce a string of competent people and are "up and coming." Many are attached to theatre or english programs (giving them the creative support from writing, acting, and the like that can be real valuable to developing your creative potential). A few do not even list their programs on their websites for fear of them getting "too big" or do not consider themselves film programs but really are if you take advantage. Look at these unlikely candidates, such as DeSales, Western State College, Fredonia, Wisconsin - Milwaukee, Hilbert, Buffalo, Brenau (women only) to name a few.

Sometimes some of the best advertised programs are no good at all, because they cannot keep faculty around long enough to form any sort of teaching team: SCAD being an example (one year you will work with people who are the tops in the industry, the next year you will be teaching some barely competent faculty how to use the video cameras, few faculty last more than two years).
 
Re: Where to go to school?

I want to make two other notes:

For me, I was a director with no college or high school degree for a decade, and made it fine.  I even did some interesting things outside of directing (free lance means never saying no to a job when you have nothing better to do, if you want to eat and drink beer that is). I purposefully went back to college and through long and hard part-time work, while remaining full-time in the industry, I got my degree.  And I am very happy I did.

Since I was already in the profession when I went to get my degree, I ended up doing more teaching than learning about the technology and techniques of video and film.  And often I would help my professors get onto shoots and get experience doing things like gripping or engineering that their own educations skipped over (you can never know too much).  In return, they gave me a ton of stuff I never would have learned selling cubic zirconia and producing video wallpaper, which is the lot of 90% of us in the industry.  One professor, in the age before DVDs, set up and aired for me eleven Akira Kurosawa films, explaining to me their cultural, visual, and story telling signifigance, and then had me write a letter to Kurosawa which he translated into Japanese asking him a question about one of his films.  Another professor took one of my own creative works and broke it down into parts and gave me a list of films which I had obviously been influenced by indirectly, and then made me watch them.  My earliest mentor in college, the late Ray Oakes, was not even a film or video person but a radio manager and DJ, but he taught me some of the most valuable things I know about making money in the field.  

In the long run, College is also a fall-back.  What if you do not spend the rest of your life in film or video.  Grips, shooters, and directors may not need college degrees, but many, if not most, of the people above the line and in management have them.  And outside of film and video it is essential to have one if you want to earn a good living.

I should also note that I have helped a number of people in their fifties in the profession get college degrees. My grandmother graduated from Drake University at age 68 with a degree in painting. This is not simply directed at an 18 year old who wants to get a degree, but to a 55 year old who is thinking they are too old and too set in the industry to ever be able to get one.  
 
Re: Where to go to school?

uhmm $30 filmschool Mike Dean.. Excellent book.. Well film school may or may not be a good place to network. My father always said its not what you know its who you know.. otherwise Im self taught.. And it cost me.. equipment reading material and 50% of my time..
My 2c
 
Re: Where to go to school?

[quote author=taubkin link=board=news;num=1087913677;start=45#51 date=07/01/04 at 20:03:40]Hey Dragon, did you get your education here in Brazil? Where was it?
[/quote]

No, I apprenticed (basically, I worked for him at the start of my career) to a Brazilian Director in 1986 (in Florida) and am married to a Brazilian marine scientist.
 
Re: Where to go to school?

Ah!, was curious... Well, there are a few places to go to around here, and they pretty much fall on the same system of your college. Little techincal backround but strong theory in arts and comunication. Tought you were from around here...
 
Re: Where to go to school?

[quote author=taubkin link=board=news;num=1087913677;start=45#53 date=07/02/04 at 08:56:46]Ah!, was curious... Well, there are a few places to go to around here, and they pretty much fall on the same system of your college. Little techincal backround but strong theory in arts and comunication. Tought you were from around here... [/quote]

I can curse in Portugeuse, can I be an honorary Brazilian?
 
Re: Where to go to school?

Consider it done. You already have what it takes to be a full-fledged one, if you want!
 
Re: Where to go to school?

I have been watching this topic from the sidelines.
I went to film school for 2years of a 4 year program...I was hired in my second year and never looked back. I learned more by doing than I ever could in a classroom. I have not missed getting my degree, and it has had no effect on my career. Some things you need to go to school for but in my opinion..filmmaking can be a DIY situation.

Buy a DVX, buy FCP and a MAC, buy After Effects.

Find a mentor and shoot and edit for a year. I can guarantee your work will be truely on par if not above most 4th year grads if you apply yourself.

There is lots of good info out there but really it comes down to being in the trenches and doing versus...philosphizing and intellectualizing "the film"....

My 2 cents
 
Re: Where to go to school?

Been following this thread and wanted to add my 25c as a NYU film school undergrad of '94 and currently running a production company..

Here are some assumptions...
A. you have the determination. Storytelling and moving images is something you have been obsessed with as long as you can remember. Your mother/father read you stories at bedtime. There are a few films you have seen more than 10 times...

B. you have some kind of basic artistic skills. When you take a photograph frends say "oh, nice", when you write somthing people read it and say "yeah". You may even have gotten published/noticed somewhere..

C. you have some kind of basic leadership and social skills; you can work in teams, you can communicate what and why something needs to be done to a group of people..

I would say that you can then, theoretically, have a career in the movie business. There are many other professions - salesman, hairdresser, network technician - but if you want to work in the movie business as director/writer/DOP... and not spend a lifetime as dolly grip I think you need A, B and C above. Dolly grip is fine - if that is what you want to do, of course.

To follow up on the thread - do you spend your money on rent in LA, equipment and start making phonecalls or on tuition and foodplans for four years?

I learned a lot at NYU. Ton of stuff, which I use every day, ten years later. I know the craft of building a good story - there is no mystery, really. I know how to set up a 2shot, talk to actors in a way they can understand and work with, how to shoot a dinner table/conversation (ask anyone..) and how to create a "useful" result. Not academy award winning stuff, but good craftmanship, so to speak. I make a living from it.

Looking at the other option - let's say that after 10 years of making phonecalls and working here and there night and day you're getting tired of the movie business, things aren't going your way, and want to do something else, then what do you have? Success is not guaranteed, if you see what I mean..

If you have the option to go to a university filmschool you (a) save 10 years of learning by doing, (b) open up many other options in life, and (c) ruin your economy for many years ahead.

I've worked with and know people from both tracks (film school/ years of hustling) and it seems that if you have the talent then you'll make it either way, so it doesn't really matter, in this aspect.

There's no business like show business :)
/magnus
 
Re: Where to go to school?

A degree, any degree, whether it's in Film or Underwater Basket Weaving, is a good thing in today's world. It's nice to have a degree under your sleeve, especially if your filmmaking goals don't pan out.

As far as a film degree goes, like others have said, film school is good for two things: 1) Getting your hands on pro equipment, and 2) Creating a peer network, since who you know is often more important to getting started than what you know (if you don't make it, maybe one of your classmates will, and that's when you ask for a favor!).

That said, Tarantino's advice is to put the $50,000 you would spend on film school and use it to shoot your first movie. :)
 
Re: Where to go to school?

[quote author=PaulK link=board=news;num=1087913677;start=45#58 date=07/06/04 at 21:10:03]
That said, Tarantino's advice is to put the $50,000 you would spend on film school and use it to shoot your first movie.  :)[/quote]

From what I gathered from interviews Tarantino did not do anything else than watch movies for many many years. He had seen all the films at the local video store. Of course he can merge hongkong action with western narrative in a 'postmodern' non-specific time/place as he has a huge vocabulary of meta-objects to work with (Cinema studies in film school - means something like "films referencing films" )

For any plot/story situation he knows/has seen a reference and work that into the plot/story.

The groundbreaking stuff Tarantino did was to merge characters (Willis/Thurman/Travolta) whom we know from other movies with scenes we know from other movies with settings we know from other movies. Very clever and well done. (Not sure about the relaxed ultra-violence - which he borrowed from Kubrick for sure...)

Of course he says "spend your money on making a film".

The sadest crowd I've met was the "independent film makers" who made a feature about their neighbourhood and got it screened at one or two festivals with no distribution deal and now are left with the credit card bills and the bankloans.

It seems to me that unless you have seen a lot of films (as in... thousands ) which you can work from your first film will - most likely - not be very good. If you can get an experienced mentor which will guide you through the process, that's another story...

You got to have a story. Here's an idea: try to write a movie without a gun and a girl and a ticking bomb - the challenge will force you into new patterns, and if you can make something...eh... fresh... then bob's your uncle.

Good luck!!

/magnus
 
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