Where to go to school?
- Thread starter Zach Lien
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Where to go to school?
You may not need to go to film school to make good films, but you will still have to spend just as long practicing, reading, learning, studying, filmmaking, refining, reading more, studying more, practicing more...
I didn't go to film school, but I've read probably 200 books on writing, filmmaking, financing, editing, directing, cinematography, storytelling, theory, practice, etc. I've written and produced dozens of commercials and shorts, written 7 feature screenplays and dozens of short film scripts that I haven't even bothered to shoot yet, made a couple of no-budget feature-length pictures, and so after all that, I figure I"ve finally "graduated" from my "self-imposed film school."
Without that learning and study, the odds of making a picture that's watchable are extremely low. Sit through any film festival and see the "features" that people are turning out, and you'll see what I'm talking about. Very few screenplays are even readable -- and even fewer "indie" (read: homemade) films are even watchable. Making a watchable film is an enormously difficult task. It takes talent, sure -- but talent and $49 might get you a plane ticket to L.A., but that's about it. The rest is all hard work, whether done in school or on your own: you still need to do it.
If you choose not to go to film school, you'll still likely have to do all the same amount of work, all the same amount of learning -- just at your own pace, and without paying tuition to someone. You also won't have a diploma at the end, but as Jimerson pointed out, not a whole lot of people are out there hiring graduates based on their MFA in film.
You may not need to go to film school to make good films, but you will still have to spend just as long practicing, reading, learning, studying, filmmaking, refining, reading more, studying more, practicing more...
I didn't go to film school, but I've read probably 200 books on writing, filmmaking, financing, editing, directing, cinematography, storytelling, theory, practice, etc. I've written and produced dozens of commercials and shorts, written 7 feature screenplays and dozens of short film scripts that I haven't even bothered to shoot yet, made a couple of no-budget feature-length pictures, and so after all that, I figure I"ve finally "graduated" from my "self-imposed film school."
Without that learning and study, the odds of making a picture that's watchable are extremely low. Sit through any film festival and see the "features" that people are turning out, and you'll see what I'm talking about. Very few screenplays are even readable -- and even fewer "indie" (read: homemade) films are even watchable. Making a watchable film is an enormously difficult task. It takes talent, sure -- but talent and $49 might get you a plane ticket to L.A., but that's about it. The rest is all hard work, whether done in school or on your own: you still need to do it.
If you choose not to go to film school, you'll still likely have to do all the same amount of work, all the same amount of learning -- just at your own pace, and without paying tuition to someone. You also won't have a diploma at the end, but as Jimerson pointed out, not a whole lot of people are out there hiring graduates based on their MFA in film.
pheboglobi
Well-known member
Re: Where to go to school?
I'd thought I would throw in my two cents on this.
If you are looking for only a job, a degree won't matter so much, especially in production. Production jobs depend more on who you know, your demo reel/experience, and your personality more than a degree. Post-production is pretty much the same way, although I've heard that having a computer degree will make a big difference sometimes.
Sometimes a degree only makes a difference to other alumni and your parents. If you are looking to land a white collar job in an office for a production company, a degree can make a difference there as well.
However, another question to ask yourself is if you are more concerned with getting a job or with getting an education? A degree is not an education, it's a piece of paper certifying that you completed the requirements of said degree in a satisfactory condition. Just because someone went to classes and passed them doesn't mean they were educated.
With that being said, school has its benefits. One is the alumni connections and networking with your fellow students, and another is that you accelerate your experience. You can learn things from instructors/professors that in the 'real world' might take you 10 years (if ever) to learn, as most people are not willing to give up info/tips/tricks of the trade in this highly competitive business. Professors don't care about giving up 'secrets' so much (maybe because they are more concerned with getting tenure), and most genuinely want to help their students along (and make themselves appear smarter in the process.)
School also gives you the chance to be critiqued about your films from your peers and mentors, which can be painful for sure at times, but at the same you are developing from the criticisms you receive and from the criticisms you will hear about other students' films and projects. That sort of dialog is hard to come by outside of a learning institution.
And despite what people may tell you, there are things that you can't learn on set. I guarantee you no one will introduce you to Stan Brakhage on set, nor will you will likely to learn 'film theory'. Trust me, someone will pretty much have to force you to read that stuff - try giving Movie & Methods V1 or V2 a quick read for example, it's pretty dry and very academic, and then they will probably have to explain it in detail. However, despite the pain in the ass it is, it is worth learning about.
In addition, there are tons of other subjects that you won't learn on set that you would in a college classroom, like history, anthropology, physics, literature, writing, etc.
At this point, I want to make a distinction between 'film school' and college. This a personal thing of mine, so I am not meaning to offend anyone here. I know a lot of people who lump 'getting a 4 year degree with a film related major', 'one year program', 'a GRaduate degree from a prestigious university', 'two day film school' together as being the same thing - film school. Well, one might think 'well, what's the big deal?', but for some reason, some people here in LA really look down on people who have gone to 'film school'. I remember one guy who said, while rolling his eyes, "Why would anyone spend all that money on [film school] when they could make a feature film for the same amount and learn so much more? That's so stupid." Even people who went to 'film school' (all flavors) seem to have this opinion sometimes.
I run into that attitude a lot, and just to avoid conflict, I usually respond when people ask if I went to film school, I tell them I went to college, but I never tell them that I have a film related degree because of people's negative attitudes towards it. I just tell them that I have a photography and visual arts degree, which is true anyway - my full degree says "Film, Photography, and Visual Arts." Anyway, no one looks down on you if you have a college degree other than film.
So to sum up:
+ If you are just looking for a job in the business in LA, you just need to be in LA and willing to work your ass off. And if you need a reel, make a reel. (you won't need a reel to make it as a Production Assistant, but you would for being an assistant editor)
+ If you are looking to learn more about the technical aspects of film, you can take classes at a local college or university, full sail, and even some manufacturers like Apple will hold classes. Depending on what you want to learn, they can get pretty specific or pretty general.
+ If you want to get an education, learn and think about things in depth, then find an education because it won't look for you. That doesn't necessarily mean getting a college degree, although a lot of people find it in that process. You can travel the world and come back with an education, or you can travel the world and come back with a lot less money - much like college.
+ If you go to college, there will probably be lots of girls, and they'll probably be nicer than the ones in LA. But seriously, you'll have to take other classes to graduate, and because of that, you can become more well rounded. (Trust me, having film conversations all the time gets a little tired, and I relish the oppurtunity to talk about other things.)
Also, you've been working for a year at a place you don't like, which means you probably won't take something like Full Sail or college for granted like so many students do or would and would appreciate the things that schools can offer.
Anyway, good luck on your decision.
--Garrett
I'd thought I would throw in my two cents on this.
If you are looking for only a job, a degree won't matter so much, especially in production. Production jobs depend more on who you know, your demo reel/experience, and your personality more than a degree. Post-production is pretty much the same way, although I've heard that having a computer degree will make a big difference sometimes.
Sometimes a degree only makes a difference to other alumni and your parents. If you are looking to land a white collar job in an office for a production company, a degree can make a difference there as well.
However, another question to ask yourself is if you are more concerned with getting a job or with getting an education? A degree is not an education, it's a piece of paper certifying that you completed the requirements of said degree in a satisfactory condition. Just because someone went to classes and passed them doesn't mean they were educated.
With that being said, school has its benefits. One is the alumni connections and networking with your fellow students, and another is that you accelerate your experience. You can learn things from instructors/professors that in the 'real world' might take you 10 years (if ever) to learn, as most people are not willing to give up info/tips/tricks of the trade in this highly competitive business. Professors don't care about giving up 'secrets' so much (maybe because they are more concerned with getting tenure), and most genuinely want to help their students along (and make themselves appear smarter in the process.)
School also gives you the chance to be critiqued about your films from your peers and mentors, which can be painful for sure at times, but at the same you are developing from the criticisms you receive and from the criticisms you will hear about other students' films and projects. That sort of dialog is hard to come by outside of a learning institution.
And despite what people may tell you, there are things that you can't learn on set. I guarantee you no one will introduce you to Stan Brakhage on set, nor will you will likely to learn 'film theory'. Trust me, someone will pretty much have to force you to read that stuff - try giving Movie & Methods V1 or V2 a quick read for example, it's pretty dry and very academic, and then they will probably have to explain it in detail. However, despite the pain in the ass it is, it is worth learning about.
In addition, there are tons of other subjects that you won't learn on set that you would in a college classroom, like history, anthropology, physics, literature, writing, etc.
At this point, I want to make a distinction between 'film school' and college. This a personal thing of mine, so I am not meaning to offend anyone here. I know a lot of people who lump 'getting a 4 year degree with a film related major', 'one year program', 'a GRaduate degree from a prestigious university', 'two day film school' together as being the same thing - film school. Well, one might think 'well, what's the big deal?', but for some reason, some people here in LA really look down on people who have gone to 'film school'. I remember one guy who said, while rolling his eyes, "Why would anyone spend all that money on [film school] when they could make a feature film for the same amount and learn so much more? That's so stupid." Even people who went to 'film school' (all flavors) seem to have this opinion sometimes.
I run into that attitude a lot, and just to avoid conflict, I usually respond when people ask if I went to film school, I tell them I went to college, but I never tell them that I have a film related degree because of people's negative attitudes towards it. I just tell them that I have a photography and visual arts degree, which is true anyway - my full degree says "Film, Photography, and Visual Arts." Anyway, no one looks down on you if you have a college degree other than film.
So to sum up:
+ If you are just looking for a job in the business in LA, you just need to be in LA and willing to work your ass off. And if you need a reel, make a reel. (you won't need a reel to make it as a Production Assistant, but you would for being an assistant editor)
+ If you are looking to learn more about the technical aspects of film, you can take classes at a local college or university, full sail, and even some manufacturers like Apple will hold classes. Depending on what you want to learn, they can get pretty specific or pretty general.
+ If you want to get an education, learn and think about things in depth, then find an education because it won't look for you. That doesn't necessarily mean getting a college degree, although a lot of people find it in that process. You can travel the world and come back with an education, or you can travel the world and come back with a lot less money - much like college.
+ If you go to college, there will probably be lots of girls, and they'll probably be nicer than the ones in LA.
But seriously, you'll have to take other classes to graduate, and because of that, you can become more well rounded. (Trust me, having film conversations all the time gets a little tired, and I relish the oppurtunity to talk about other things.)Also, you've been working for a year at a place you don't like, which means you probably won't take something like Full Sail or college for granted like so many students do or would and would appreciate the things that schools can offer.
Anyway, good luck on your decision.
--Garrett
Re: Where to go to school?
[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=news;num=1087913677;start=15#21 date=06/23/04 at 15:31:43] It takes talent, sure -- but talent and $49 might get you a plane ticket to L.A., but that's about it. [/quote]
On what? Surplus M*A*S*H Chopper Airways? :
(Bitter east coaster here . . . )
[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=news;num=1087913677;start=15#21 date=06/23/04 at 15:31:43] It takes talent, sure -- but talent and $49 might get you a plane ticket to L.A., but that's about it. [/quote]
On what? Surplus M*A*S*H Chopper Airways? :
(Bitter east coaster here . . . )
kyle_doris
Well-known member
Re: Where to go to school?
i tend to disagree with some of you about school. first off... i did the going to NYU or USC film route, but i opt'd to get a more techinical engineering degree from RPI. looking back on it, i think i made the right decision. the bottom line is: going to school for me was far more then just to learn from the institution i was at, it encompassed the whole expeirience. sure it's not for everyone, but to marginalize it's importance is sorta short sighted. networking in school goes beyond the shmoozing that simple networking can do. not to say networking in ALL its forms isn't good. but the guys i know from school, the things we've been trying to do together... i know i can count on these guys for ANYTHING. thick and thin. work as a team win as a team. if it wasn't for my college buddies, bottom line is my project would not even be a glimmer in my eye. between the mini35 and all the countless work they've done.
for me college fostered my community. not saying this is the same for everyone, but it's certainly one place to build a crew. for life.
i tend to disagree with some of you about school. first off... i did the going to NYU or USC film route, but i opt'd to get a more techinical engineering degree from RPI. looking back on it, i think i made the right decision. the bottom line is: going to school for me was far more then just to learn from the institution i was at, it encompassed the whole expeirience. sure it's not for everyone, but to marginalize it's importance is sorta short sighted. networking in school goes beyond the shmoozing that simple networking can do. not to say networking in ALL its forms isn't good. but the guys i know from school, the things we've been trying to do together... i know i can count on these guys for ANYTHING. thick and thin. work as a team win as a team. if it wasn't for my college buddies, bottom line is my project would not even be a glimmer in my eye. between the mini35 and all the countless work they've done.
for me college fostered my community. not saying this is the same for everyone, but it's certainly one place to build a crew. for life.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Where to go to school?
Garrett -- excellent, excellent post.
David: er, yeah, might cost a little more, coming from the east coast... that's our $49 "special" rate on Southwest or America West...
Garrett -- excellent, excellent post.
David: er, yeah, might cost a little more, coming from the east coast... that's our $49 "special" rate on Southwest or America West...
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Re: Where to go to school?
[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=news;num=1087913677;start=15#21 date=06/23/04 at 15:31:43]You may not need to go to film school to make good films, but you will still have to spend just as long practicing, reading, learning, studying, filmmaking, refining, reading more, studying more, practicing more...
[/quote]
So true! I have spent half my life (literally) reading about films and filmmaking. Watching and learning and have even Grip'd and P.A.'d on a handful of them. Studying the Art is important.
[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=news;num=1087913677;start=15#21 date=06/23/04 at 15:31:43]You may not need to go to film school to make good films, but you will still have to spend just as long practicing, reading, learning, studying, filmmaking, refining, reading more, studying more, practicing more...
[/quote]
So true! I have spent half my life (literally) reading about films and filmmaking. Watching and learning and have even Grip'd and P.A.'d on a handful of them. Studying the Art is important.
Re: Where to go to school?
[quote author=John Hudson link=board=news;num=1087913677;start=15#26 date=06/23/04 at 18:02:26]Studying the Art is important.
[/quote]
Not important -- essential. Indispensible. Unavoidable. Absolutely required.
[quote author=John Hudson link=board=news;num=1087913677;start=15#26 date=06/23/04 at 18:02:26]Studying the Art is important.
[/quote]
Not important -- essential. Indispensible. Unavoidable. Absolutely required.
Re: Where to go to school?
I'm 54 and have worked most of my life as a self taught still photographer. I learned by reading and practicing, accumulating a huge library of the works of photographers whose work I respected. I understood that photography is about seeing, and seeing beauty. This led me to art galleries, philosophy, and into the woods. When I realized that my work was changing direction and I needed to learn video, and got over the shock of the cost of equipment (nevermind a career change at this age!), I headed for the bookstore. I learned what I could from magazines like DVMag -- the technical terms, etc. And then I bought a small video camera and practiced. I watched movies and documentaries with the sound off to learn about framing. I kept notes on what I liked and didn't. Then I took two night courses -- digital film making and editing sound and video. I bought my DVX100a at the end of the courses, practiced and played, found a creative way to finance a doc I wanted to make, and headed off to do it. The footage isn't brilliant, but it's solid. I'm flumoxed by the technology of editing, but I am learning. I've buddied up with a friend from editing class and together we are wading through. Financial success matters little to me, although I am not foolish about taking care of business.
I believe that a university education only helps in this way -- if you are blessed with an inspired teacher who can awaken you to the astonishing world you live in and has been written about, painted, filmed in remarkable ways. If you want to be a technician then go to school. If you want to engage the world through your art/craft, then study, study and study somemore, get a camera and get your young butt out the door.
I'm 54 and have worked most of my life as a self taught still photographer. I learned by reading and practicing, accumulating a huge library of the works of photographers whose work I respected. I understood that photography is about seeing, and seeing beauty. This led me to art galleries, philosophy, and into the woods. When I realized that my work was changing direction and I needed to learn video, and got over the shock of the cost of equipment (nevermind a career change at this age!), I headed for the bookstore. I learned what I could from magazines like DVMag -- the technical terms, etc. And then I bought a small video camera and practiced. I watched movies and documentaries with the sound off to learn about framing. I kept notes on what I liked and didn't. Then I took two night courses -- digital film making and editing sound and video. I bought my DVX100a at the end of the courses, practiced and played, found a creative way to finance a doc I wanted to make, and headed off to do it. The footage isn't brilliant, but it's solid. I'm flumoxed by the technology of editing, but I am learning. I've buddied up with a friend from editing class and together we are wading through. Financial success matters little to me, although I am not foolish about taking care of business.
I believe that a university education only helps in this way -- if you are blessed with an inspired teacher who can awaken you to the astonishing world you live in and has been written about, painted, filmed in remarkable ways. If you want to be a technician then go to school. If you want to engage the world through your art/craft, then study, study and study somemore, get a camera and get your young butt out the door.
J_Barnes
Veteran
Re: Where to go to school?
here's my 3 cents.
Full Sail is worthless in the professional world unless you are getting a degree in audio recording or tour/show production. While I do think they provide a relatively well-rounded technical education in film and video production, and yes the hours are similar to industry hours as others have said, their name is not well known at all in the industry outside of audio production. It is not impressive to anyone to read that you have an associates degree or a bachelors when they've never even heard mention of the school you attended.
Full Sail turns out technical graduates who have almost no network outside of the people in their direct graduating class. Things might be different these days down there, but historically, it's a degree mill...they're just churning out graduates every month, creating a huge alumni body that have had little contact with each other beyond the people that graduated with them in that month. That provides no assistance to you once you're in the world, and your degree alone probably won't get you in any doors.
The other problem is that these technical schools (all of them) have a horrible reputation for turning out snotty know-it-alls, who've been built up to think that they know all the technical details needed for success. Graduates of these schools are generally scorned as pains-of-all-asses because they feel entitled to positions they haven't earned. The way these schools teach people, they emphasize practical training over lengthy and reinforced experience, so their graduates rarely have an appreciation for working their way up the ladder.
Finally, I've been told on more then one occasion that listing full sail on my resume was more detrimental then it was helpful. I've had several employers tell me that they almost didn't call me in to interview because they've either heard bad things about the graduates, or they've heard nothing at all.
When I was in the finals for the DGA training program, one of the first concerns of the final panel was regarding my full sail education. I didn't get selected for the program, and while I don't blame full sail for it, I certainly think I would have been considered more seriously if I were a graduate of Columbia or NYU.
In the end, attending a school provides you with the network that's going to get you jobs. That's why NYU, USC, and AFI are the best schools for the industry...not because they provide you with the best education (and lets be honest, your education is only as good as your ability to learn), they're the best because of the people who are driven to attend them. Your classmates will end up getting you the jobs more often then your resume will alone, so if you're interested in attending a school for film and video production, attend one that allows you to build strong ties with similarly driven individuals. NYU, AFI, USC, UCLA are the only ones I'd consider in retrospect.
Surround yourself with the best and the brightest because success is contagious. If you're the most talented and technically adept person amongst your peers, then you're hanging in the wrong crowd. That's my three cents.
here's my 3 cents.
Full Sail is worthless in the professional world unless you are getting a degree in audio recording or tour/show production. While I do think they provide a relatively well-rounded technical education in film and video production, and yes the hours are similar to industry hours as others have said, their name is not well known at all in the industry outside of audio production. It is not impressive to anyone to read that you have an associates degree or a bachelors when they've never even heard mention of the school you attended.
Full Sail turns out technical graduates who have almost no network outside of the people in their direct graduating class. Things might be different these days down there, but historically, it's a degree mill...they're just churning out graduates every month, creating a huge alumni body that have had little contact with each other beyond the people that graduated with them in that month. That provides no assistance to you once you're in the world, and your degree alone probably won't get you in any doors.
The other problem is that these technical schools (all of them) have a horrible reputation for turning out snotty know-it-alls, who've been built up to think that they know all the technical details needed for success. Graduates of these schools are generally scorned as pains-of-all-asses because they feel entitled to positions they haven't earned. The way these schools teach people, they emphasize practical training over lengthy and reinforced experience, so their graduates rarely have an appreciation for working their way up the ladder.
Finally, I've been told on more then one occasion that listing full sail on my resume was more detrimental then it was helpful. I've had several employers tell me that they almost didn't call me in to interview because they've either heard bad things about the graduates, or they've heard nothing at all.
When I was in the finals for the DGA training program, one of the first concerns of the final panel was regarding my full sail education. I didn't get selected for the program, and while I don't blame full sail for it, I certainly think I would have been considered more seriously if I were a graduate of Columbia or NYU.
In the end, attending a school provides you with the network that's going to get you jobs. That's why NYU, USC, and AFI are the best schools for the industry...not because they provide you with the best education (and lets be honest, your education is only as good as your ability to learn), they're the best because of the people who are driven to attend them. Your classmates will end up getting you the jobs more often then your resume will alone, so if you're interested in attending a school for film and video production, attend one that allows you to build strong ties with similarly driven individuals. NYU, AFI, USC, UCLA are the only ones I'd consider in retrospect.
Surround yourself with the best and the brightest because success is contagious. If you're the most talented and technically adept person amongst your peers, then you're hanging in the wrong crowd. That's my three cents.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Where to go to school?
I have to admit that USC, UCLA, AFI and NYU are the top film schools. However I chose to go to Brooks Institute in Ventura. The reason being is that the program gives you instant immersion in making movies. I made a short in my 6th month that has been dubbed a festival film. Granted using the DVX100A has given me an advantage over the rest of the class, the overly critical professors have pushed us to succeed in our first true short film. I have been told by a few USC graduates that they really didn't touch cameras until their second year.
As some have posted I agree, I do not plan to get my degree here at Brooks. I am hoping that after two years I will be able to find work to start my career. However in the meanwhile it is a great way to make a kick ass reel.
I have to admit that USC, UCLA, AFI and NYU are the top film schools. However I chose to go to Brooks Institute in Ventura. The reason being is that the program gives you instant immersion in making movies. I made a short in my 6th month that has been dubbed a festival film. Granted using the DVX100A has given me an advantage over the rest of the class, the overly critical professors have pushed us to succeed in our first true short film. I have been told by a few USC graduates that they really didn't touch cameras until their second year.
As some have posted I agree, I do not plan to get my degree here at Brooks. I am hoping that after two years I will be able to find work to start my career. However in the meanwhile it is a great way to make a kick ass reel.
Ernest_Acosta
Well-known member
Re: Where to go to school?
DITTO, DITTO TO EVERYTHING J_BARNES SAID!!!
DITTO, DITTO TO EVERYTHING J_BARNES SAID!!!
Re: Where to go to school?
I am currently in "film school" but I will end up with a BFA. I've been here for over 2 years and here are some of the benefits I have seen from going to school.
1. Equipment. I have access to 16mm, 35mm, green screens, mics, lights, editing stations, and anything a pro studio would be using. And I get hands on experience using these things. Plus, I can check these things out for student projects and use them for whatever I want.
2. Networking. Not just for after school, but right now. If I need actors, well, there are plenty of acting majors, and all they're doing is trying to build a portfolio. Everyone in school is basically trying to build a great reel, so if you have something to shoot, it's not a problem getting crew and talent for free.
3. I'm not sure about other schools, but all the teachers at my school work in the field they are teaching, and really care and know what they are talking about. You have a much better time in a classroom when the teacher is actually out there doing what they are teaching and knows from first hand experience.
4. I think a college degree couldn't hurt in any field you're in. Sure you need a good reel, but with a good reel and a college degree, it looks that much better. I think it's more about finishing school. That was 4 or 5 years you dedicated to something, so chances are better you'll stick to the job. Plus, at school, you learn every aspect of film and television. So maybe your passion is cinematography, but you can't find work; film school will teach you to be proficient in all the aspects of filmmaking so you will be able to take any job in the industry you can get. I'd rather take a job doing anything in film/television than a job outside the industry.
Also, I figured since I was working some job I couldn't stand 40+ hours a week barely making enough cash to survive, might as well go to school, and put that 40+ hours a week into something I care about. Of course, you don't get a paycheck from school, but screw it, I'm in major debt and I'm having fun learning what I want to learn.
I am currently in "film school" but I will end up with a BFA. I've been here for over 2 years and here are some of the benefits I have seen from going to school.
1. Equipment. I have access to 16mm, 35mm, green screens, mics, lights, editing stations, and anything a pro studio would be using. And I get hands on experience using these things. Plus, I can check these things out for student projects and use them for whatever I want.
2. Networking. Not just for after school, but right now. If I need actors, well, there are plenty of acting majors, and all they're doing is trying to build a portfolio. Everyone in school is basically trying to build a great reel, so if you have something to shoot, it's not a problem getting crew and talent for free.
3. I'm not sure about other schools, but all the teachers at my school work in the field they are teaching, and really care and know what they are talking about. You have a much better time in a classroom when the teacher is actually out there doing what they are teaching and knows from first hand experience.
4. I think a college degree couldn't hurt in any field you're in. Sure you need a good reel, but with a good reel and a college degree, it looks that much better. I think it's more about finishing school. That was 4 or 5 years you dedicated to something, so chances are better you'll stick to the job. Plus, at school, you learn every aspect of film and television. So maybe your passion is cinematography, but you can't find work; film school will teach you to be proficient in all the aspects of filmmaking so you will be able to take any job in the industry you can get. I'd rather take a job doing anything in film/television than a job outside the industry.
Also, I figured since I was working some job I couldn't stand 40+ hours a week barely making enough cash to survive, might as well go to school, and put that 40+ hours a week into something I care about. Of course, you don't get a paycheck from school, but screw it, I'm in major debt and I'm having fun learning what I want to learn.
J_Barnes
Veteran
Re: Where to go to school?
I don't mean to be negative, or discount anyone's opinions here, but I would suggest that being IN film school and being many years OUT of film school will show you how different you view the industry, your education, and your choices in general.
Most people I know who have attended any sort of film school, be it a fine arts degree or a technical program, have expressed the opinion that they wasted their time going to school. Hindsight is 20/20, and everyone I know who is now working in the industry has had the benefit of seeing all the ways to break in without a degree. I don't think that is a fair reason NOT to go to school, but it does tell you that it's not always a necessary step for everyone.
Of all the people I know who are working successfully in film and television production (specifically: major shoots, national commercials, union work, and feature films), I can only think of two people who have degrees in film production.
Others have degrees in English, history, theater, women’s studies, business and other non-related subjects. Several have no degrees at all. Of the two people who have degrees, one attended NYU (and has struggled the most significantly in his career despite his talent)...and the other worked semi-professionally for several years before even attempting to go to school (AFI).
Again, I don't mean to discount a formal education, but I think in film production it's rarely ever necessary for a career.
I think a lot of us are pushed to get a degree in film production to satisfy some sense of obligation to attain a college education. Typically the people in these programs are only interested in directing or cinematography, and they come out of college thinking they deserve to direct and that they deserve to be a DP. Rarely is that ever the case.
While you do have access to equipment and personnel at college, a single year’s tuition could typically buy or rent all the equipment a school provides you. When presented with the option most people present a variety of reasons why that wouldn't work for them: their parents won't give them the money, they don't have a project to shoot, they need to find a script, they don’t know where to start, they can't find actors, they can't find crew help, etc.
The litmus test is this: if you can't get money, equipment, actors, stories, and assistance outside of the context of a school...you're NEVER going to do it once you’ve graduated. Motivation is not something you get from a degree.
If you’re not interested in directing and producing your own stuff to showcase your own creativity, then skip school, move to LA or NYC and start PA-ing, it’s the best education you could ever hope to get.
Go to college if you want, don't if you don't, but either way you should have a clear expectation of what you're going to get out of it. You should have a schedule of goals you'd like to meet each year, and if you're not meeting those goals you should be reevaluating your path.
I don't mean to be negative, or discount anyone's opinions here, but I would suggest that being IN film school and being many years OUT of film school will show you how different you view the industry, your education, and your choices in general.
Most people I know who have attended any sort of film school, be it a fine arts degree or a technical program, have expressed the opinion that they wasted their time going to school. Hindsight is 20/20, and everyone I know who is now working in the industry has had the benefit of seeing all the ways to break in without a degree. I don't think that is a fair reason NOT to go to school, but it does tell you that it's not always a necessary step for everyone.
Of all the people I know who are working successfully in film and television production (specifically: major shoots, national commercials, union work, and feature films), I can only think of two people who have degrees in film production.
Others have degrees in English, history, theater, women’s studies, business and other non-related subjects. Several have no degrees at all. Of the two people who have degrees, one attended NYU (and has struggled the most significantly in his career despite his talent)...and the other worked semi-professionally for several years before even attempting to go to school (AFI).
Again, I don't mean to discount a formal education, but I think in film production it's rarely ever necessary for a career.
I think a lot of us are pushed to get a degree in film production to satisfy some sense of obligation to attain a college education. Typically the people in these programs are only interested in directing or cinematography, and they come out of college thinking they deserve to direct and that they deserve to be a DP. Rarely is that ever the case.
While you do have access to equipment and personnel at college, a single year’s tuition could typically buy or rent all the equipment a school provides you. When presented with the option most people present a variety of reasons why that wouldn't work for them: their parents won't give them the money, they don't have a project to shoot, they need to find a script, they don’t know where to start, they can't find actors, they can't find crew help, etc.
The litmus test is this: if you can't get money, equipment, actors, stories, and assistance outside of the context of a school...you're NEVER going to do it once you’ve graduated. Motivation is not something you get from a degree.
If you’re not interested in directing and producing your own stuff to showcase your own creativity, then skip school, move to LA or NYC and start PA-ing, it’s the best education you could ever hope to get.
Go to college if you want, don't if you don't, but either way you should have a clear expectation of what you're going to get out of it. You should have a schedule of goals you'd like to meet each year, and if you're not meeting those goals you should be reevaluating your path.
Re: Where to go to school?
[quote author=J_Barnes link=board=news;num=1087913677;start=30#36 date=06/25/04 at 07:11:46]
While you do have access to equipment and personnel at college, a single year’s tuition could typically buy or rent all the equipment a school provides you. When presented with the option most people present a variety of reasons why that wouldn't work for them: their parents won't give them the money, they don't have a project to shoot, they need to find a script, they don’t know where to start, they can't find actors, they can't find crew help, etc.
The litmus test is this: if you can't get money, equipment, actors, stories, and assistance outside of the context of a school...you're NEVER going to do it once you’ve graduated. Motivation is not something you get from a degree.[/quote]
This is one of the most clear-headed comments I've seen on this topic yet.
[quote author=J_Barnes link=board=news;num=1087913677;start=30#36 date=06/25/04 at 07:11:46]
While you do have access to equipment and personnel at college, a single year’s tuition could typically buy or rent all the equipment a school provides you. When presented with the option most people present a variety of reasons why that wouldn't work for them: their parents won't give them the money, they don't have a project to shoot, they need to find a script, they don’t know where to start, they can't find actors, they can't find crew help, etc.
The litmus test is this: if you can't get money, equipment, actors, stories, and assistance outside of the context of a school...you're NEVER going to do it once you’ve graduated. Motivation is not something you get from a degree.[/quote]
This is one of the most clear-headed comments I've seen on this topic yet.
Re: Where to go to school?
barnes you are the man. i agree w/ you on what you said.
and here's a funny story for you barnes. its true lol.
My dad was recently in LA for business. He ended up in a sauna with a gay man, (i try to not ask how). The gay man said he was a director, and that the best way to go is to take the money you would have used for college and pay for housing- then go around trying to intern anywhere you can find...so you can maybe find an open door.
Praise to the gay man...and you barnes...
barnes you are the man. i agree w/ you on what you said.
and here's a funny story for you barnes. its true lol.
My dad was recently in LA for business. He ended up in a sauna with a gay man, (i try to not ask how). The gay man said he was a director, and that the best way to go is to take the money you would have used for college and pay for housing- then go around trying to intern anywhere you can find...so you can maybe find an open door.
Praise to the gay man...and you barnes...
Re: Where to go to school?
..yep nice post barnes, it is really true.. even for getting work. i get offered jobs just walking down the street. i was out downtown last night at about 11:30, and some guys are handing out cds, for ther band, i say no, but ask them about it. 2 min later i get offered to travel with them and shoot their next few MV's . so i tell them they probably realistically afford to do hire me for that. so instead they want an MV done in town here before they leave. last month i was discretely offered DP on an indie, and production of 2 other MV's after chance happenings around the city. , and one short film production. it seems that work finds me. as barry G. said you just need to put the time in to learn it yourself.. and then of course you need the drive and talent to back it all up. I dont want to discourage you from going to school, some people need school, or would just like to go , but I think what all of us are trying to make a point of is that
"nobody ever has to teach a cheetah to run.. a bird to fly.. or a fish to swim so you just have to ask yourself.. what are you?"
-thats the IAL quote of the day
and yes..they can always get better, but its what they were from the beginning.. and a cat can learn to swim too, but it just isnt as pretty.
..yep nice post barnes
, it is really true.. even for getting work. i get offered jobs just walking down the street. i was out downtown last night at about 11:30, and some guys are handing out cds, for ther band, i say no, but ask them about it. 2 min later i get offered to travel with them and shoot their next few MV's . so i tell them they probably realistically afford to do hire me for that. so instead they want an MV done in town here before they leave. last month i was discretely offered DP on an indie, and production of 2 other MV's after chance happenings around the city. , and one short film production. it seems that work finds me. as barry G. said you just need to put the time in to learn it yourself.. and then of course you need the drive and talent to back it all up. I dont want to discourage you from going to school, some people need school, or would just like to go , but I think what all of us are trying to make a point of is that "nobody ever has to teach a cheetah to run.. a bird to fly.. or a fish to swim so you just have to ask yourself.. what are you?"
-thats the IAL quote of the day
and yes..they can always get better, but its what they were from the beginning.. and a cat can learn to swim too, but it just isnt as pretty.