Where is the Analog Video Love?

paulears said:
Im actually involved with a lighting heritage project and the collection is growing splendidly! However, while the stuff that lights up fares well, bar rust, asbestos and the actual things with filaments, the controls and dimmers are a muc( bigger problem. The old dimmers are riddled with asbestos,
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Dimmers that have asbestos on them, not dimmers partly made from them?

Check this 14 year old video about installing a 24k lamp. It honestly feels like I'm watching some type of B grade Frankenstein movie! It was cool when the technicians also needed knowledge of the inside of the tools.
 
Well - wire wrapped around a block of asbestos is sort of 'made' - but the stuff was everywhere. Long blocks with a wiper for the level. I had a quote from a safe disposal company and to scrap one cost more now to dispose of than it cost new in 1975!

After all the years I have been replacing lamps, I know that the ones I hate are when the new one is labelled with skull and crossbones, and the safety leaflet is like a book. Removing any of the high pressure xenon types just makes my clumsiness very worrying. However, recently I've been doing a history production with real limelight, real gas and candles - and that has put things into perspective.

I have found a flightcase at the back of the store - it says Ampex, and I think there is an Ampex badged equivalent to the Sony 300 series inside? Maybe?
 
I don't think we will ever see any real resurgence of analogue video formats. Vinyl records and, to a lesser extent, audio cassettes, perfected sound quality many decades ago. I'd say consumer grade video only got "good" in the late 2000s.

I was always quite satisfied with VHS, as its long running time, good sound quality (on newer Hi-Fi models) and robustness made up for the lack of picture quality. But I wouldn't use it now unless I had some particular application. That said, my VCR is sat under the desk, hooked up to a freeview PVR, all ready to go. I keep pondering setting the clock on it, but I never do.

The main difference between analogue audio and analogue video is the technology. A mechanical recording on vinyl is a very simple technology which is easy to keep manufacturing and servicing even today. Even an audio cassette is relatively simple compared to a video mechanism.

One reason digital formats like CD/DVD/BD (as well as DV/DAT/etc) work from an engineering point of view is because of the amount of error correction involved. It would not be feasible to store analogue video on such formats.

Sometimes people's perceptions seem to be more of an issue. I was reading a topic on another video forum a while back where someone wanted a "VHS look" for his video. He achieved this by copying the video on to a VHS tape, then playing it back into a computer. He was disappointed with how "good" it looked. Basically he had come to associate "VHS", not with the appearance of actual VHS video, but with filters which basically distort the video beyond recognition and add a PLAY symbol to the top corner.
 
Stephen Coates said:
Sometimes people's perceptions seem to be more of an issue. I was reading a topic on another video forum a while back where someone wanted a "VHS look" for his video. He achieved this by copying the video on to a VHS tape, then playing it back into a computer. He was disappointed with how "good" it looked. Basically he had come to associate "VHS", not with the appearance of actual VHS video, but with filters which basically distort the video beyond recognition and add a PLAY symbol to the top corner.
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That is pretty classic. I generally suggest that to really achieve what most people think of as a VHS look, take it down two generations. Then you start to see the errors and artifacts really show up. That's what we did with the opening of this clip. SDX900's (late model standard def three chip cameras) pushed through two generations of VHS. When you see these cameras in use again at 1:12 and thereafter, the VHS processing was eliminated so that's straight footage off the P2 cards. And then Alexa for the behind the scenes footage.

 
NorBro said:
Millennials are the last generation who would likely consider any love for analog video.

New humans don't care; want simple, fast...on their phones.

Occasionally you'll get the young odd bird looking up old tech on the internet to buy and use, but it's mostly done and just memories, write-ups about the history.
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On the contrary... im seeing a lot of the generation below me (Gen Z) find and embrace Mini DV and Hi8 video for their work. I was a DIT on a feature that shot down in New Orleans on PAL Sony PD150s a couple of years ago. Warms my heart the kids are still finding ways to make DV work
 
Mike Krumlauf said:
On the contrary... im seeing a lot of the generation below me (Gen Z) find and embrace Mini DV and Hi8 video for their work. I was a DIT on a feature that shot down in New Orleans on PAL Sony PD150s a couple of years ago. Warms my heart the kids are still finding ways to make DV work
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Any examples you see, which I'm imaging is a handful, maybe a dozen, is likely less than 0.01% of the total number.

Every generation always has those interested in the last generation's life (or earlier) - but TikTok, IG, Threads, it's all phones and filters.

Any experimentation is short-lived - all been there, done that - and a minuscule percentage of humanity is going to revisit analog video for a longer period of time.
 
NorBro said:
Any examples you see, which I'm imaging is a handful, maybe a dozen, is likely less than 0.01% of the total number.

Every generation always has those interested in the last generation's life (or earlier) - but TikTok, IG, Threads, it's all phones and filters.

Any experimentation is short-lived - all been there, done that - and a minuscule percentage of humanity is going to revisit analog video for a longer period of time.
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Percentage of humanity--or of content creators? I'm seeing a pretty significant amount of interest in old tech--camcorders of various vintages getting snapped up. Nostalgia waves can indeed be short-lived or longer lasting, so it is hard to predict. Remember when vinyl started to re-surge years ago? Still here, still popular. Obviously phones will remain hugely popular for many, but I think analog video will probably stick around until the cameras themselves all stop working (the tape mechanisms are a tough one, which is why I supply modern recorders with my setups).
 
CharlesPapert said:
Percentage of humanity--or of content creators? I'm seeing a pretty significant amount of interest in old tech--camcorders of various vintages getting snapped up. Nostalgia waves can indeed be short-lived or longer lasting, so it is hard to predict. Remember when vinyl started to re-surge years ago? Still here, still popular. Obviously phones will remain hugely popular for many, but I think analog video will probably stick around until the cameras themselves all stop working (the tape mechanisms are a tough one, which is why I supply modern recorders with my setups).
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I'd say humanity because if you narrow it down to content creators then where do you draw the line who's who.

But where do you see a pretty significant amount of interest in old tech and vintage camcorders getting snapped up?

Like meaning literally because I'm interested.

Are you talking about a private FB group with a bunch of 50+yo DPs? Or small gear auctions in LA? Or eBay data to see what's being sold? Or randos on YouTube down memory lane?
 
Just to throw in, people are still shooting on Super 8 film, and also getting digital scans done - up to 4K is an option.
 
NorBro said:
I'd say humanity because if you narrow it down to content creators then where do you draw the line who's who.

But where do you see a pretty significant amount of interest in old tech and vintage camcorders getting snapped up?

Like meaning literally because I'm interested.

Are you talking about a private FB group with a bunch of 50+yo DPs? Or small gear auctions in LA? Or eBay data to see what's being sold? Or randos on YouTube down memory lane?
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Because of my involvement renting out the old cameras, I'm aware of the increased interest through inquiries, plus there's just general chatter out there. I know of various younger DP's seeking out older cameras for specific projects, or to mess around on. It's a little hard to pin it all down but one gets a feel for trends as they are happening, and in this case it's DV or older, 4:3 framing, tape artifacts etc. I'm seeing analog cameras nose up in price on eBay (annoyingly, for my purposes).
 
I wish there was a place to easily and collectively see any new work like that.

Messing around, def, I still do that once a year or so - but would love to see final products that had money going into them and write-ups of why people chose a specific camera.

I'm not really in touch with the film and TV scene, but it's really hard to miss anything these days online that is getting traction and I feel like I have not seen an analog camera used for anything for a long time besides music videos (Justin Bieber recently had some fisheye footage mixed in with some other camera(s), all 4:3 but looked newer so maybe 2005+, 2010+, or post).

I guess maybe the official independent scene might be the place to check.

Shooting on film is different to me, I hope that survives forever, it's special.
 
I am encountering quite a few [younger] people on the internet who for whatever reason have old cameras/VTRs and want to use them for something. Sometimes they want an old fashioned look, sometimes its their parents surplus gear that they want to make use of, sometimes they want something which was designed to fit in your hand with accessible controls... etc

This does of course lead to a lot of odd questions on forums (and in the comments on vaguely related youtube videos)... WTF is a firewire cable? How do I digitise some digital video? What VHS do I need for my MiniDV camcorder? My Hi8 camcorder which says Hi8 in big letters on the side came with these tapes which say Hi8 on them; What kind of tapes do I need to buy for it?

Something I actually see, which really baffled me, is people who have never used magnetic tape before, who don't realise that it is reusable.

There also seems to be an issue of skateboarders (with no engineering/technical background) who seem to think that Sony put a "rewind" function in their VX1000 model just for fun and that if you actually use it, the world ends.

That is pretty classic. I generally suggest that to really achieve what most people think of as a VHS look, take it down two generations. Then you start to see the errors and artifacts really show up. That's what we did with the opening of this clip. SDX900's (late model standard def three chip cameras) pushed through two generations of VHS. When you see these cameras in use again at 1:12 and thereafter, the VHS processing was eliminated so that's straight footage off the P2 cards. And then Alexa for the behind the scenes footage.
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That example looks quite good. To me it looks like a well used VHS tape on a not-so-good machine, rather than something which was faked.
 
Perhaps this has already been mentioned (or is off topic), but did any of you see Computer Chess, Andrew Bujalski's film from 2013? Recorded on three Sony AVC 3260 black-and-white Vidicon tube cameras. A pretty cool film. https://www.computerchessmovie.com/

There was a great fairly technical article by the DP and IIRC technical advisor about how they got and kept the cameras working. Alas, I can't find it, but here's bylined by the DP (I think) though written for a general audience: https://www.vice.com/en/article/i-shot-a-new-hit-movie-on-a-1969-video-camera/

And here's the trailer. A film worth tracking down and seeing:

 
@Jim Feeley I've seen Computer Chess and loved it. The use of the old tube cameras fit the style and subject matter perfectly. I may have my timelines a bit off, but I feel like the early 2010s—when that film was being made and released—was when smaller, indie creators were really chasing the film look (which is still often the case). Bujalski and his DP totally zagged and went with a format that was likely on nobody's radar for a feature-length film.

In any event, it's well worth a watch for anyone curious to see a different take on image capture in a narrative film. Or for anyone who loves chess. And in some ways it's more relevant today than when it first came out!
 
Did they really use old tube cameras or was that all simulated to look old? Those old cameras were not just black and wise and low res, they had terrible lag, especially in low light - and i saw no lag or ghosting? Not convinced we are not watching treated modern video, made worse.
 
Jim Feeley said:
Check the links in my post.
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I'm a sceptic - I read the article, and all I remember is the half a dozen or so of these that I sold - with a reel to reel video recorder that you dangled over the shoulder. I'm glad they recorded direct to pro res, but we had those cameras on demo plugged into a variety of monitors of all sizes and types and my memory (which considering is remembering 50+ years ago) says the images had the problems he said in the article, but much, much worse. Low light - which you see in the trailer - looked horrible. Soft, noisy, grainy in the shadows and the whites easily blown out. The strange lag of those old tubes is not really what I see in the trailer. In this day and age of AI, truth bending and hype, I'm suspicious. Probably wrong, and he found 3 cameras with tip top performance, with no degradation of the tubes. My memory says that even back in the 70s, I never got that quality!
 
paulears said:
I'm a sceptic - I read the article,...
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There is/was a better article that went into detail about how they found cameras in working conditions, how made those cameras work for them, and how they maintained them. And IIRC (and I may not) they took the output of the cameras and recorded digitally to an AJA box.

IIRC, the trails in the film are pretty detailed and different shot to shot. I guess you *could* fake those with good VFX, but I don't think you could at the budget they were working with.

Ah: here's a blog by Matthias Grunsky, the DP for Computer Chess. Only a few paragraphs, but it's something:

Matthias Grunsky | Computer Chess

www.matthias-grunsky.com www.matthias-grunsky.com

And that article includes a link to an AJA PR page about the project:

AJA Ki Pro Mini Scores Checkmate for Computer Chess - Customer Stories - News - AJA Video Systems

Retro-inspired indie flick Computer Chess received an enthusiastic response from audiences when it debuted at the 2013 Sundance Film Festival.
www.aja.com www.aja.com

I pretty much don't think AJA would be party to such deception...
 
Paul, I remember those cameras too, we had a variation of them in my high school's TV studio. I agree with you that the images in the chess feature are quite clean in comparison to what I recalled from those cameras, but I would also suggest that the locations were likely lit to a high stop to avoid the image retention issues that stemmed from low light levels.

As much as I am imbedded into the tube camera culture, I'd not really look forward to having to shoot a feature with them.
 
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