When Learning on the Job Isn't Possible

JeganRX

JeganRX

Well-known member
I'm a pretty firm believer in learning much more from experience than school (Despite going to school), and I think the idea applies itself very well in general production. For relatively little money, one can learn how to use a camera, and by finding lower-end PA jobs, you can gain much more on-the-set experience. Eventually, you can move up.

This is fine... For production.

I have what many here might consider odd aspirations - digital mastering, DIs, telecines, color grading, etc. The mention of film restoration always gets my nerdy side going, anticipating the beautiful colors, sharpness, and clarity that a good remaster can provide. Looking at job listings, openings do indeed exist for "Telecine Assistant", "DI Producer", etc, but this is unfortunately the kind of specialization that, short of going to top-tier film school, is very hard to get into with a lower-end job. It's not the sort of work an intern deals with (Or at least I've never seen such a position), nor is a telecine machine in every school short of Chapman.

I consider myself well-versed in the technical aspects of video, and some film as well, but obviously have little actual experience in something like a telecine machine. I'm even confident that I COULD learn very easily, and very quickly, but of course, few employers want to teach you after hiring you.

What routes would anyone here suggest to going down that career path?
 
Internship->Trainee->Assistant->Apprentice->Tech->Master Tech.

There is a good deal to learn, and it's going to take time to learn it. You're probably correct in that few employers will want to hire you and train you to run a telecine, for example, but they may well be willing to hire you to grab the telecine guys their morning coffee and run their department's errands - which places you in the position to learn what the telecine guys can teach you, when you're not fetching coffee or running errands.
 
Sad Max said:
Internship->Trainee->Assistant->Apprentice->Tech->Master Tech.

There is a good deal to learn, and it's going to take time to learn it. You're probably correct in that few employers will want to hire you and train you to run a telecine, for example, but they may well be willing to hire you to grab the telecine guys their morning coffee and run their department's errands - which places you in the position to learn what the telecine guys can teach you, when you're not fetching coffee or running errands.
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+1. Proximity to professionals is the most basic step to becoming one yourself. Don't be bummed if you aren't hands on right out of the gate. Just simply being in the same building as the telecine guys, making your interest to learn their trade known, etc. will be a good start.
 
I remember something that I think Ralph Singleton once related - someone who was working as an assistant in a small agency office complained to their boss that they weren't getting enough time working on the deal-making: the boss sighed, and told them Look, there are two of us in this office: someone has to get the coffee, and someone has to handle making the deals. Are you ready to handle making the deals, yet? No? Well, which job does that leave for you, right now?
 
During my appointment the other day, my doctor was reminiscing about the days when he had to fetch the coffee for the senior medical staff. He admitted that he missed out on a lot of important information while preparing and carrying beverages.

I was pretty cool with that, just knowing that he had been in the same building as the veteran docs.
 
+ what, 10?


BUT............expanding your horizons, by getting involved in "student/indie" projects will only help you. Be honest about your abilities, but when involved in those projects, push the envelope, use it to learn and expand upon your education. But don't claim you can composite X when you cannot even spell Y. Your reputation is at stake.

So, with that in mind, after going to school, what have you learned/practiced? If you say nothing, I will be sorely disappointed. School only gives you the "tools", how you use them is up to you. Sure most indie/student projects pay nothing, but they are invaluable for experience and reel material. The percentage may be .01% percent that get offered paid gigs right out of school, despite what the school may have told you. Sorry, reality check time.

You may have learned/understood programs A-Z, and know what they do, but a real employer will ask what you have done in those programs. And telling them about your Final or Term Project for school will mean..........nothing, other than a cursory glance. Use that knowledge to show what you can really do.

You need to show potential employers what you HAVE done, not what you CAN do. Not many of them are willing to take a risk on someone with just ideas and education, there are thousands of people in that position. Have something to show them!!!!!!!! (With emphasis on post-education stuff)


Meaning, GET YOUR HINDQUARTERS BUSY!!!!!!!!!!!! Student reels are iffy, if it just shows what you have done while in school, at best, but using what you have done afterwards for "Reel Material"............Priceless. Showing work, post-school, is much more valuable and current.

With everything said, welcome to the Entertainment/Visual Arts Media. It's a cast iron *****, that will spit you out on your butt, if you are not ready for it or for the competition if you are wanting to do this as a career. So, get competitive in what you can offer.

Consider this my offering to your ongoing education.
 
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You guys seem to think I'm in the typical student mind-set here, though I appreciate the guidance. Admittedly, I can't help feel as if these words are common sense (though, that reality check Doc mentions doesn't hit a lot of people, see: graphic design majors).

Obviously the path of working for free, kissing ass, and eventually learning on the sidelines is the conceptual idea of getting into any field, but this is far from the specifics of what roles are typically filled, for free, in such a specialization.

The problem lies not in my willingness to take the menial job (the lack of pay is the real deterrent), but more so in that looking at a few DI labs, these jobs seem nonexistent.
 
RX, I NEVER said "kiss ass" (though it never really hurts to do so, if done properly). I said develop a reel outside a school/educational environment. And what is the easiest way to do that? I think you know.

But for most, there is a structure to film career development. School > student film (possibly paid a minimal amount, but don't count on it..... Copy and credit and a couple of slices of pizza is standard) > Indie Film (same as student film, but maybe a bit more respect and some gas money) > Minor Production (some pay, but nothing to gloat about) > Major Production (you've paid your dues, welcome to the big league.....maybe). Each area will take time, and the amount time spent in each area is dependent on you and, lets face it, some amount of luck. But to go from student to paid position on a Major, though do-able, is very dependent on luck and who knows you (not who you know, contrary to belief), and who has seen what you can do. And unless you have a benefactor fronting you, how else will they know what you can do without a reel or real world experience?

So, back to my point, how do you make people notice your work? And school work really counts for nothing, in the grand scheme of things (Hell, I remixed a Grand Funk Railroad master tape for my Audio Engineering degree but every potential employer always asked: What have you done since school?). Develop a reel on your own or based on stuff you have done on your own, with no "teaching" guidance. What have you done in a "Sink or Swim" scenario on your own?

I absolutely wish you every bit of goodwill and success. But what does that saying say? "Fortune favors the prepared?" All I am doing is trying to help you be ready for competition you will face very soon. Real life compared to School environment? No comparison on which is more ugly and cut-throat. LOL, it's not school, where you tried to get a higher grade. Many people are vying for the same position in order to make a living, pay bills, and eat.

In the real world, you are either at the top of the grade curve (or affordable with the desired talent/skills) or un-employed. That is business. Schools tend to fail to impress that on their students, their ultimate goal is collecting tuition in the long run.

If this scares you, there are two choices. Be the best and/or most afforable (harsh, yes, but that is the mindset you need), or find another way to make a living (and enjoy your contributions to film as a hobby)

EDIT: Sure, Graphic Design encompasses a lot, but you asked this question in a film-related forum. You got a film-related answer from me and others. You want a Advertising related answer or a Architectural related answer, you may need to ask in those forums encompassing those subjects.
 
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Doc Bernard said:
RX, I NEVER said "kiss ass" (though it never really hurts to do so, if done properly). I said develop a reel outside a school/educational environment. And what is the easiest way to do that? I think you know.
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I wasn't trying to say you said that, that just seems to be a large component .:)

I absolutely wish you every bit of goodwill and success. But what does that saying say? "Fortune favors the prepared?" All I am doing is trying to help you be ready for competition you will face very soon. Real life compared to School environment? No comparison on which is more ugly and cut-throat. LOL, it's not school, where you tried to get a higher grade. Many people are vying for the same position in order to make a living, pay bills, and eat.

In the real world, you are either at the top of the grade curve (or affordable with the desired talent/skills) or un-employed. That is business. Schools tend to fail to impress that on their students, their ultimate goal is collecting tuition in the long run.

If this scares you, there are two choices. Be the best and/or most afforable (harsh, yes, but that is the mindset you need), or find another way to make a living (and enjoy your contributions to film as a hobby)
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That whole realization of the real world is old news, I'm looking into writing a book on this epiphany for my generation actually... My peers seem to be completely unrealistic with their college careers. Change of careers perhaps? I appreciate the good luck though.
 
Jordan_S said:
During my appointment the other day, my doctor was reminiscing about the days when he had to fetch the coffee for the senior medical staff. He admitted that he missed out on a lot of important information while preparing and carrying beverages.
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That's actually a little bit frightening.

Now, take off your shirt...lines were long at Starbuck's on heart-and-lung day so...lemme see...your aorta's gotta be around here *somewhere*...
 
Really, RX, rather than asking us you ought to try setting up face-time with owners and managers who run exactly the kind of facilities you want to get into, and listening to what *they* look for in a junior-level hire, what skills *they* would like you to walk in with, and what *their* process is, for bringing in trainable staff. No one here is likely to give you much more than fairly general advice because none (well, very few) of us are going to be the actual people whose interest you must pique, to get in on the kind of position you're looking for.

re: the progression that Doc laid out - it's a good rule of thumb but not the way one necessarily has to go. I never did the student/indie stuff (unless you count student work in school); I went into a VFX discipline straight out of school, then transitioned to the Art Department as a designer. I actually missed out on the whole PA experience, which I sometimes suspect might have been a minor loss.
 
Sad Max said:
Really, RX, rather than asking us you ought to try setting up face-time with owners and managers who run exactly the kind of facilities you want to get into, and listening to what *they* look for in a junior-level hire, what skills *they* would like you to walk in with, and what *their* process is, for bringing in trainable staff. No one here is likely to give you much more than fairly general advice because none (well, very few) of us are going to be the actual people whose interest you must pique, to get in on the kind of position you're looking for.
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Sounds good, also I hate to turn this board into a whinefest (Next DVXUser event?), so I'll drop the topic here.
 
^^^My facetious and fictional anecdote was intended to question the pedagogical soundness of this method of learning. Yes, competition is what causes educated folks to work in menial jobs while waiting for an opportunity. However, the egos of the job-holders are the real forces that further this inefficient training system.
 
Wow, 50 points for use of pedagogical soundness in a sentence! :)

Really, physicians just aren't trained that way, though. Stakes are too high.
 
RX782 said:
You guys seem to think I'm in the typical student mind-set here, though I appreciate the guidance. Admittedly, I can't help feel as if these words are common sense (though, that reality check Doc mentions doesn't hit a lot of people, see: graphic design majors).

Obviously the path of working for free, kissing ass, and eventually learning on the sidelines is the conceptual idea of getting into any field, but this is far from the specifics of what roles are typically filled, for free, in such a specialization.

The problem lies not in my willingness to take the menial job (the lack of pay is the real deterrent), but more so in that looking at a few DI labs, these jobs seem nonexistent.
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RX, I'm not making any assumptions about your mindset. The main point of my advice is that if, as you say, these menial jobs/internships don't exist at the DI labs you've researched, then try to find another way to get close to these professionals. If the lab is in an office building, is there another company there that you could work for where you'd at least be bumping into these guys on the elevator, etc. You'd be surprised what could develop.
 
...and don't discount getting in on another part of the staff, and moving laterally from there.

For example, an ex-girlfriend is now an executive producer for shows like Extra and Access Hollywood, and her route of ingress was taking a receptionist job at E!, from which she moved into producing. She could just as easily have moved over to the post department, if that's what she had been interested in doing.

In other words, land on whatever part of the beach is most lightly defended, and start the war from there.
 
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