Whats the pro vs cons when using these
- Thread starter Cabrera
- Start date
Richard Crowley
Veteran
Flicker, noise and potential interference are easily eliminated by using a fixture with an electronic ballast (which is exactly what you get when you buy a KinoFlo or other brand-name fluorescent fixture).
Those fixtures don't have the mechanical integrity of the kind that are made for field production, but in fixed use in a studio, that is a moot point.
They also don't have the kinds of light control features and options (barn doors, reflectors, grids, etc.) that you find on fixtures made for production use. But, again for fixed studio, you can use other methods for achieving proper light control.
I have taken several of those inexpensive 2-tube "shop lights" from Home Depot (with electronic ballasts, of course) and bolted a "Baby Nail" onto the back of the fixtures so I could position them with a "knuckle" onto a standard light stand. They work great IMHO.
The kind of tubes you find at Home Depot, Lowes, et.al. probably won't have very good color rendering (CRI), so you should buy genuine Kino or other brands designed for film/video production. You will need to get these from a place that specializes in equipment and suppies for production such as www.filmtools.com (and dozens of others).
Note, however, that if you are lighting a GREEN SCREEN, then the ugly green spike you find in cheap home-center fluourscent tubes is actually an advantage, just don't try to use those low-CRI tubes for other purposes.
Those fixtures don't have the mechanical integrity of the kind that are made for field production, but in fixed use in a studio, that is a moot point.
They also don't have the kinds of light control features and options (barn doors, reflectors, grids, etc.) that you find on fixtures made for production use. But, again for fixed studio, you can use other methods for achieving proper light control.
I have taken several of those inexpensive 2-tube "shop lights" from Home Depot (with electronic ballasts, of course) and bolted a "Baby Nail" onto the back of the fixtures so I could position them with a "knuckle" onto a standard light stand. They work great IMHO.
The kind of tubes you find at Home Depot, Lowes, et.al. probably won't have very good color rendering (CRI), so you should buy genuine Kino or other brands designed for film/video production. You will need to get these from a place that specializes in equipment and suppies for production such as www.filmtools.com (and dozens of others).
Note, however, that if you are lighting a GREEN SCREEN, then the ugly green spike you find in cheap home-center fluourscent tubes is actually an advantage, just don't try to use those low-CRI tubes for other purposes.
PerroneFord
Deals in Lead
Then why are you here asking our opinion and wasting our time? You knew the answer you wanted from the beginning.
If you want to be cheap you don't need anyone's permission. Go ahead and do so. And when your Home Depot lights put EMI bars through your footage, you'll not need to ask why. You can just think about all the money you saved.
But I'll give you another reason why you shouldn't use them. And that is because they make you look like a cheap jackass when you show up on a shoot. And if I had hired you to light or do a shoot for me, I'd send you home on the spot. But you probably don't need to worry about anyone hiring you, so that's moot.
Good luck with your lights.
Chris Santucci
Veteran
Ya know, THIS GUY, shot a feature length film with fluorescent fixtures purchased at The Home Depot (or Lowes), and he actually did pretty well with it. And he shot on film.
I just bought a few sets of daylight 4' tubes from The Home Depot (right off the shelf) that have a CRI of like 91 for about 10 bucks.
If you can avoid flicker problems and noisy fixtures (some are quieter than others), I personally don't see any problem with it, but I'm thinking it might not work out so well with a CMOS camera...
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I just bought a few sets of daylight 4' tubes from The Home Depot (right off the shelf) that have a CRI of like 91 for about 10 bucks.
If you can avoid flicker problems and noisy fixtures (some are quieter than others), I personally don't see any problem with it, but I'm thinking it might not work out so well with a CMOS camera...
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PerroneFord
Deals in Lead
I buy tubes there also. But this wasn't a post about buying the tubes. it was about using the ballast and getting the tubes elsewhere.
I'm not saying it can't be done. But Chris, I suspect that you, like me, have seen numerous posts from people wondering what's wrong with their footage when it comes down to stuff like this.
If you're that tight on money, maybe hold off on the project. Or press on with it after some testing. But I can tell you I'd be worried as hell if I saw some joker show up with a bunch of hardware store fixtures on my paid shoot unless I *KNEW* he knew what he was doing. If Rodger Deakins showed up with a bumch of Lowe's branded stuff, I'm wouldn't be worried. But a newbie with zero track record?
I'm not saying it can't be done. But Chris, I suspect that you, like me, have seen numerous posts from people wondering what's wrong with their footage when it comes down to stuff like this.
If you're that tight on money, maybe hold off on the project. Or press on with it after some testing. But I can tell you I'd be worried as hell if I saw some joker show up with a bunch of hardware store fixtures on my paid shoot unless I *KNEW* he knew what he was doing. If Rodger Deakins showed up with a bumch of Lowe's branded stuff, I'm wouldn't be worried. But a newbie with zero track record?
Chris Santucci
Veteran
The guy who wrote/directed/and shot Primer, was a total noob when he made that film, but yeah, I see what you're saying. I suspect it's all in the ballast as to what's possible.
As it is, I just shot a quick test with my 5D and a Home Depot fluorescent fixture and got horizontal bars from 1/30 up to 1/100.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGKxvK09mkc
Might be a different story with a CCD camera.
.
As it is, I just shot a quick test with my 5D and a Home Depot fluorescent fixture and got horizontal bars from 1/30 up to 1/100.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGKxvK09mkc
Might be a different story with a CCD camera.
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Why did i ask....Because I can!! ...Im not a lighting pro ..however i felt that this concept might work if DONE CORRECTLY I wanted to get feedback from others that may have tried or are still currently using this type of setup. Hope I answered your question
I once tried using hardware shop lights like these on a cover set, and found that there is a magic in the established brands that make them worth the extra money - otherwise they wouldn’t exist as companies. For instance, Kino Flo could not exist as a company if a shop light was just as good for production applications. Besides the well established CRI issues, residential fluorescent bulbs have a number of drawbacks that make them less suitable for production applications.
First off, even the high frequency versions can have a type of flicker problem called an “eratz ripple.” Even though the lamps operate at high-frequency, the cycles can stack to create a lower frequency waveform which causes the light to pulsate. As Chris’ test demonstrated, video cameras can pick up flicker from the “eratz ripple” effect even operating within a flicker-free window. When making your own fluorescent soft banks or using solid-state high frequency ballasts for built-in set practical fluorescent light fixtures, it is necessary to shoot tests with the ballast you plan to use to make sure you will not get an “eratz ripple.” Kino Flo fixtures, on the other hand, use high frequency electronic ballasts that run at specific high frequencies that eliminate the generation of an “eratz ripple” (most at 25 kHz , the Parabeam Light at greater than 30 kHz) resulting in flicker free operation at any frame rate or shutter setting. Kino Flo ballasts also incorporates advanced electronic circuitry so that they will ignite a lamp instantly, even when cold, requiring no warm up time.
Compared to these shop light fixtures, Kino Flo ballasts send a higher output current to the lamps to drive their tubes as brightly as possible. For this reason only Kino Flo True Match lamps should be used in Kino Flo fixtures. The phosphors in Kino Flo True Match Lamps have been reformulated to match the spectral sensitivity curves of film and digital imaging equipment at the higher milliamps at which the ballasts operate. If that weren’t enough “magic,” the newer Kino Flo fixtures that use the biax tubes use ballasts that include Power Factor Correction (PFC) circuitry. As it does in HMI ballasts, this advanced electronics contributes to a more economical use of power than conventional electronic ballasts and reduces the return of harmonic currents into the power stream. For example, a Kino Flo Parabeam 400 draws less than half of the power (2 Amps) of a comparable 4’ – 4 Bank “shop light” (4.6 Amps). While this nearly 3 amp difference is not a major consideration when using house power, it can make a difference when your power is coming from a portable generator because you can use two Parabeam 400s for the same power as a 4’ – 4 Bank “shop light”. With a Power Factor Rating of over .9, the Parabeam 400 fixtures are especially well suited for use on small portable generators.
The fourth and final magical ingredient to Kino Flo ballasts pertains to the newer Biax fixtures (Diva, Parabeam, Vistabeam, Barfly) and is probably the most difficult to understand because it has to do with the vagaries associated with the load put on portable generators. If you haven't already, I would suggest you read the article I wrote for our company newsletter on the use of portable generators in motion picture lighting. In it I cover some of the basic electrical engineering principles behind harmonic distortion and how it can adversely effect generators. The article is available on our website.
All fluorescent fixtures are a good choice for operation on small portable generators in the limited sense that they use a quarter of the power of a comparable tungsten soft light. However, the ballasts of conventional “shop lights” (as well as the older style Kino fixtures) that use the T-12 tubes are not Power Factor Corrected (PFC) and return harmonic currents into the power stream. When used in quantity, they can constitute a source of considerable harmonic noise. For this reason, on their website Kino Flo cautions users of their older style fixtures that also use T-12 tubes, that the ballasts “will draw double the current on the neutral from what is being drawn on the two hot legs. On large installations it may be necessary to double your neutral run so as not to exceed your cable capacity.”(FAQ “Why is the neutral drawing more than the hot leg”.) For a detailed explanation for why harmonic currents cause unusually high neutral returns see my article on the use of portable generators in motion picture production available on our website.
In the residential lighting applications for which shop lights are designed, harmonic currents are less of a concern than they are in motion picture lighting applications. Put simply, when you plug a 4’ 4 tube shop light into a wall outlet you need not be concerned about harmonic currents. As is the case with non-PFC HMI ballasts discussed elsewhere in this forum, the impedance of the electrical path from the power plant is so low, the distortion of the original voltage waveform so small (1-3%), and the plant capacity so large in comparison to the load of the one light, that the inherently noisy load of a shop light will not affect the voltage at the distribution bus.
Left: Grid Power w/ no load and a THD of less then 3%. Center: Conventional Generator w/ no load and a THD of 17-19%. Right: Inverter Generator w/ no load and a THD of 2.5%.
It is, however, an all together different situation when plugging the same fixture into conventional portable generators. Like the non-pfc ballasts of the older style Kino fixtures that use T-12 ballasts (the Single, Double, & 4 Bank Fixtures, the Wall-o-Lite fixture, as well as the Image 20, 40, & 80 fixtures), shop lights like these return harmonic currents into the power stream that can generate voltage distortion. As a comparison of the oscilloscope shots above and below indicate, given the large sub-transient impedance of conventional portable generators, and the fact that the original supply voltage waveform of conventional generators is appreciably distorted (a THD of 17-19%) to begin with , you have a situation where the return of any harmonic currents, whether by a shop light or non-PFC electronic ballast (HMI or Kino), results in significant waveform distortion of the voltage in the distribution system.
Left: Grid Power w/ Kino Flo Wall-o-Lite. Center: Conventional AVR Power w/ Kino Flo Wall-o-Lite. Right: Inverter Power w/ Kino Flo Wall-o-Lite.
The generation of harmonic currents by production equipment should be eliminated whenever possible, otherwise it can build to a point where it will have an adverse effect upon other equipment running on the same power. For example, for my newsletter article I ran a package consisting of two Arri 1200 HMI Par Pluses (with standard Arri non-PFC electronic ballasts) in addition to a 4’ – 10 tube Kino Flo Wall-o-Lite (with T-12 Ballasts) on a Honda EX5500 (a conventional generator). And, for the sake of comparison, I ran a comparable package but with power factor corrected electronic ballasts on our modified EU6500is (an inverter generator.) The difference between the resulting waveforms was startling and can be seen in my article on the use of portable generators in motion picture production. The article is available on our website.
Guy Holt, Gaffer, ScreenLight & Grip , Boston
heavyG
Underwater Giraffe Member
Do you just have one post that you you re-post over and over? At least this time you spared us the photos of the lighting set-up outside at night, or the "pro" distro...
Cool Lights
DVXuser Sponsor
HeavyG, that voice in the back of your head saying "haven't I seen this before?" is right, you have. ;-)
Nejuicer, I recommend you contact Jason Ramsey by PM to pursue a marketing agreement and support the community here as all the other advertisers are doing.
Cabrera, the only way to know for sure is test, test, test to see if a Home Improvement store fixture has a flicker problem or not. Bring it back if it does. Perrone is right about the perceptions of clients though. If its for a backyard studio and narrative filmmaking, then there's really no one to care but you and your crew. But if its for clients, eyebrows will most likely be raised.
Nejuicer, I recommend you contact Jason Ramsey by PM to pursue a marketing agreement and support the community here as all the other advertisers are doing.
Cabrera, the only way to know for sure is test, test, test to see if a Home Improvement store fixture has a flicker problem or not. Bring it back if it does. Perrone is right about the perceptions of clients though. If its for a backyard studio and narrative filmmaking, then there's really no one to care but you and your crew. But if its for clients, eyebrows will most likely be raised.
I’m not posting the same post over and over. It may seem that way to those who don't bother to read the posts. Granted, I have posted oscilloscope shots of the harmonic noise generated by HMIs before. I am now posting on the harmonic noise generated by fluorescent fixtures like the shop lights being discussed here because it is a commonly overlooked problem when using these lights in production. As far as I can recall, I have only posted once before on power factor correction as it pertains to fluorescent fixtures in general and it was in response to basically the same question. A similar question is going to solicit a similar response. Where’s the foul?
I resent Richard’s suggestion that my post was nothing more than advertising. The OP was asking for reasons why he shouldn’t use standard shop lights. The harmonics they generate is a very good reason not to use them. Equipment failure due to harmonic distortion is becoming an increasingly prevalent problem in production because the power generation equipment we use on set was not designed to deal with the abundance of non-linear loads like the electronic HMI and Fluorescent ballasts in use today. Running incandescent lights on generators was never a problem because as purely resistive loads they didn’t create harmonic currents. While the inductive reactance of magnetic ballasts running on generators created voltage spikes, they operated pretty reliably if the generator was equipped with an AC frequency governor. The problem began with the increasing use of non-linear lighting loads, like electronic HMI and Fluorescent ballasts, that generate harmonic currents. The problem is being further compounded by the increasing prevalence on set of sophisticated electronic production equipment like computers, hard drives, and HD monitors which require clean stable power to operate, but are themselves sources of harmonic distortion.
I have put many hours into researching generators, the harmonic noise generated by both HMI & Fluorescent electronic ballasts, and the effect it has on set power and other equipment operating on it. I have made this information available for free on our website (available at http://www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/emailnewsletter_generators.html.) I post in threads where this information is pertinent so that others can benefit by it as well. How does this constitute advertising? Unlike some people, I am supporting the community by sharing information.
If it seems like I am posting the same thing over and over it is because harmonic noise is generated by all kinds of production equipment. The generation of harmonic currents by production equipment should be eliminated whenever possible, otherwise harmonic noise can build to a point where it will have an adverse effect upon other equipment running on the same power. In fact, a viscous cycle can get started. The more harmonic orders that are generated, the more distorted the power supplied by the generator becomes. The more distorted the power waveform becomes, the more harmonic currents are thrown back into the electrical distribution system, which in turn, creates additional voltage distortion. In this fashion, something akin to a feedback loop can get started. Very often, the operation of electrical equipment may seem normal, but under a certain combination of conditions, the impact of harmonics is enhanced with unpredictable results.
The harmonic noise generated by shop lights like the one being discussed here is a real problem and make them unsuitable for production applications using generators. Now you can either deny it is a problem and be worse off for it; or you can accept it and your awareness of these effects will help you to build systems that avoid or mitigate problems on set.
Guy Holt, Gaffer, ScreenLight & Grip , Boston
Zacatac
Well-known member
I have to say I agree with Guy, he was mearly posting the conclusions of testing he's done, which are very helpful, amid me not understanding half of what he says. 
He's not Selling anything, he's giving out his info, which if you can't tell, is FOR Free
Guy, I'd love to meet you, you're only a hour away from me, pick your brain sometime, because what I've seen here, and over on Scarletuser, is invaluable
He's not Selling anything, he's giving out his info, which if you can't tell, is FOR Free
Guy, I'd love to meet you, you're only a hour away from me, pick your brain sometime, because what I've seen here, and over on Scarletuser, is invaluable