What would you do (Reality TV question)

timapter

timapter

Veteran
Ok,

Ive been offered a job on an SA tv reality show (much similar to Project Runway, but with two teams of 8 instead of individual players). BUT

The company is a little backwards when it comes to sound (like a LOT of SA companies. Not all, but quite a lot of them), and they asked me what rigs I would suggest for use on this project (not sure why they asked one of the sound ops, I think there ISNT a sound supervisor).

So heres the breakdown - how would you guys handle this (pref low budget and high budget options - i dont know yet what they are willing to spend).

Locations: Big loft spaces, and an empty church for the elimination/challenge scenes. So that means reverb.

Cameras/Coverage: Each team of 8 has two camera's on them at a time (4 cam's total on the show for most of the time).

Options: Basically they have asked the question boom or wireless. Thats a rough one, because coverage of 8 people is hectic (Im thinking 2 442's - one per cam, but that gives no options for any boom coverage of incidental dialogue, effects etc)

If I say, for example, 3 radios and a boom per camera, what gear should I suggest? Naturally, a shotgun is not perfect for reverb spaces, but Im imagining at times that there will be high environmental noise (sewing machines etc), and also booms might not be able to get incredibly tight to the characters. SO im thinking CS-3e, for its "sort of best of both worlds" type characteristics.

Im also going to suggest Lectro radios, but I doubt there is budget. What if we went with 3 G2's with COS-11's?


Lastly, what about a cart option? Im almost 100% sure they wont have the cash, but Im trying to cover my bases.

If anyone has some sage advice, please swing it my way.

Thanks,
Tim
 
Wow, first congrats on the gig! Sounds GREAT!!!

Budget will be dictating just about everything, no?
I can not imagine [nor have I ever had] to do such a demanding sound gathering project. I'd say EVERYONE would have to have their OWN LAV, at the very least. Then I'd think about hiding some mics here and there; BEST would probably be hanging from the ceiling, if they let you. Some boundary mics might come in handy also...

If $$$ is a prob, and it sounds like it might be, you could always get lower cost equipment. Also, they NEED to let you scout the locations FIRST, so you can make sure there's no interference with the lav's. Try VHF and UHF, just in case. Scouting is also ESSENTIAL for other stuff: sound from ACs, trains, whatever...

You're [or they're] renting gear, yes? If you have to buy it for the project, second-hand gear might do the trick, but you'd need some time with all the equipment to make sure it all works well.


Neat gig though!!
:thumbsup:
 
Thanks vidled, Im pretty amped at the prospect: ive done quite a few smaller series before, but nothing this big.

Im booked to check over their planned locations on Tuesday, but I think more for reverb and BG than for the lavs - in SA pretty much every freq band is still cool to use.

I spoke to them again after I started this thread, and it seems they are keen to put a sound man on each camera, with a four channel mixer (Im going to push HARD for SD442 - most common mixer here anyway), 4 wireless, and a boom.

Right now you're saying - thats 5 channels, Tim! Well, I know. This is going to be an interesting negotiation.

As far as I can gather, they want to use lavs as primary mics. Fair enough. So we will probably have at LEAST 16 units operating on the show (although only 8 or so per "base camp" or whatever). I have a feeling in my bones they are going to push for G2 systems, which could be worse I guess. Im damn sure Lectro aint gonna happen.

Im seriously doubting whether there will be great scope for plants etc due to budget, but the PZM idea is a really good one and Ill look into that. Lighting gantrys are going up in each venue, so mounting space wont be an issue I dont think.

Im still not sure whats going to happen with the buy/rent situation, but if they want to rent, Im going to think about buying a chunk of the gear myself, renting it to them, and keeping it at the end for my own use or resale.

This is complicated and scary, but Im looking forward to it.

Any more thoughts or ideas would be great folks...
 
Right off the bat, Tim, congrats! You should feel really great about being offered a gig of this size. Obviously, as stated, the budget will really determine which way you can go with a project of this size, but if it is anything close to the size of that Project Runway then you're going to be sitting pretty. Reality television normally doesn't invest as much money as possible on their sound, but you can really use this fact to help them increase your budget... show them lousy examples.

Congrats, though!

Let me think about how I would approach this, and of course, wait for Oleg to come along (and try to steal the gig :))

-Jeremy
 
That Oleg. :)

Thanks guys, I appreciate the kind words, and the second I have firmer numbers etc you're the first people Ill look to for ideas for options on this. And I look forward to hearing any ideas you may have.

Unfortunately, I dont think we'll be close to Project Runway budget, but Im going to negotiate with all the Jew blood I have inside me :)

Tim
 
timapter said:
Im going to negotiate with all the Jew blood I have inside me
Click to expand...

And it's not like you don't have a ton of brothers here with the same blood who can back you up just in case...

There is a Jewish Mafia... We're called the Landlords. Italians leave a horse's head in a bed, we leave a kosher pastrami sandwich with a kinish.

-Jeremy
 
Of first off, congratulations on the gig. With the war stories I hear from mixers that have done reality shows you are in for the best/worst time of your sound career. :beer:

Not knowning your budget, so assuming it is decent, my approach would be (never done this but this would be my first idea) 2 sound mixers at station with 10 channel DEVA for each. 8 channels for wireless on each contestant, 2 for boom with each camera. You could similtaniously run a mix from the DEVA to a laptop and/or wireless back to camera for a master track they can edit with. Jam TC between DEVA and 4 cameras and you should be good to go.

Six people in sound dept (per shift, perhaps multiple shifts), rent two DEVAs, 24 wireless, 4 boom packages (including ifb) and the sound budget could come in for around $3000 USD a day (multiple shifts will be more). :) If they are shooting with professional HD cameras, this will be less then their camera dept budget.

Of course if you can negotiate that I am flying you out to Seattle to be my agent. :evil:

Good luck my friend
 
Tim,

First of all - CONGRATULATIONS!!!

As far as setup goes, pretty much what Wabbit said. But, I guarantee you that they will want a full IFB setup. From what I've heard (I've never done reality myself, but really want to) they will have a producer or some other grunt (I love calling producers grunts) following each camera taking story notes. Might even be useful to invest in a couple of those TC clipboards that are out there. If they have a central control room, you may also have to wireless hop back to them.

Again, not sure if this fits in the budget, but if you are pretty much static at a location for long periods of time, you may want to get more of a venue system for the static locations. You can set up antennae in the location and wire it back to your cart. Then be prepared to switch to a bag when you are out and about. But, be sure to include great bags and harnesses in your equipment mix (you did see those pictures Scott Farr posted on Jeff's site with the 8 Rx with his Cantar recorder didn't you?)

If you are stuck with G2's talk to me. I've been researching a setup that gives me both portable and rackmount Rx, with sharkfins or omni antennae to boost reception (and provides diversity). This system costs like $1000 (U.S.) for up to 4 Rx (the antenna system, not including the Rx's.)

And, I agree with Wabbit and the others, wire up everyone and consider your lav's your primary audio. And, best case, yes, get a multitrack recorder like a Deva or Cantar. (If you get a Cantar I'm going to be hating you big time. ;-)

According to Scott, you don't need a mixer with the Cantar. It can handle 8 inputs, and has pots for each.

Keep us posted!

Phil
 
hey thanks for the kind words everyone.

now, to the recorder question - there is only one Cantar in South Africa at the moment, in the possession of a private production mixer, and the Deva has not yet reached our shores. The only even slightly feasible multitracker is the Fostex PD-6.

So big multitracking is almost out of the question. this makes things difficult, because in this case it is kind of pushing the option of recorders out the window.

Ill put up more details as I get them...

A quick question, if we HAVE TO go with one mic on the boom ops (keeping in mind the reverb, and the high BG, and the need for reach), what would you guys go for? Im thinking CS-3e, but am very open to suggestions...
 
Hey Tim, one option you do have for mulit-track that can reach the SA shores is Metacorder or Boom Recorder. Won't work for bag work, but for the static stuff you could certainly use it. I'm sure you've seen the threads with Take on Jeff's site.

Phil
 
Depending on Camera, some options.....

Depending on Camera, some options.....

What are they using for a camera? A lot of reality shows are shooting on either the new SD optical disc formats or IMX, both of which have 4 channels of audio recorded to tape. And, both of these cameras have a built in wireless slot. Generally, the onboard camera mic is automatically recorded with AGC to track 3 and the built in wireless is automatically recorded to track 4. Then you can assign whatever you
want to the usual 2 rear inputs. You can unplug the on-camera mic and plug a wireless receiver into the front (if you're really desperate!).

Also look into the PSC Alpha Mix over the 442. It has a built in NP-1 battery with dedicated outputs to power your wireless mics. When you're using that many wirelesses, beeing able to have one power source for everything that can be changed in 10 seconds makes a big difference. And it's cheaper than the 442 as well.

http://www.professionalsound.com/Catalog/alphamix.htm

With the money you save, look into a Zaxcom wireless from your mixer to your camera. Digital for twice the dynamic range, and more importantly, you can transmit BOTH channels over one link.

http://www.atscomms.com/Line_Card/Product_Pages/Zaxcom_Packages/zaxcom_Packages.html

In terms of shotguns, I like the Sanken CS-1. It has excellent back rejection, is short (less weight on the end of that boom), and sounds great.

http://www.sanken-mic.com/english/

K-tek makes a boom that has an elbow, allowing you some flexability (and comfort, because your operator can take a bit of a break by resting the boom base on the ground but have the actual boom at a right-angle over the talent.

Just some thoughts Good Luck!
 
hmmm. That PSC mixer is very interesting, but I cant help being sceptical of their equipment, which is usually well below Pro standards.

I really like a lot of the things they have put in that mixer though! Some very clever ideas...

Anyone have any experience or things to say about that mixer?

I dont like the user interface very much, but if the performance is good that is an interesting looking mixer.

Zax wireless is completely out of the question. The mixers would have to be free for us to afford that! :)

Articulated booms are also out, boom rentals here are just too cheap for the producers to OK buying booms specially for this job.

The CS-1, well, Im open to someone seconding this recommendation...
 
Oh, didnt answer the actual question I see:

I imagine we will be shooting DV, most probably Sony Z1's. Thats a guess, Ill confirm tomorrow.

This means two channels per camera.
 
as a late joiner to this thread .. sweet job Tim!! nice one! sounds like a total nightmare to me.. so i'm very interested how its going to be done. I hope you are allowed to have visible lavs, cos with all the movement i'd imagine's involved, hidden lavs would be a very dodgy method of primary sound.

how are you going to jam timecode to everything if you're using Z1's?
 
thanks!

yes, its gonna be a total nightmare. which is the appeal to me at this stage of my career :)

as lavs go, yes, definately will be visible. What lav mic would you folks suggest for this application? keeping in mind the "one mic to rule them" strategy - talent may be indoors, outdoors, reverb, high BG, whatever. Im still thinking COS-11 (over B6 due to B6 not handling wind as well). Which mic offers better separation from BG? Im thinking COS-11... open to correction.

Re timecode, I couldnt say as I have no final details until tomorrow or tuesday, but the second I know Im gonna put up what they want to do with this show, and see what options I have available with the help of you good people.
 
if you have a say at all at this meeting, try and gun for dsr450's or something like that, cos syncing with z1's across the board without the use of a slate (I imagine you won't be using a slate) will be a case of all pressing freerun at the same time at the beginning of the day, which is very un-professional. Or using audio on the camera as a guide track, but that won't help for syncing all the peripheral lavs etc. Try and press for something jammable.

any lav should be ok for wind noise if you've got a big fluffy rycote over them, no?
 
i guess that is true... is which case the B6 would be more economical. whats your personal pick between COS and B6 scooby?
 
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