What makes the biggest difference, mic or recorder?

G

George Loch

Well-known member
Two scenarios:

NTG 2 going into a micpre3 or F8.

-vs-

NTG 3 going into a DR60II

Which will provide the better sound?

-gl
 
In order of importance, imo:

1) Placement of the mic

2) Placement of the mic

3) Proper levels on the recorder

4) Mic

5) Recorder (especially these days with inexpensive recorders being actually decent).


BUTTT... in this case, I'd probably go for the NTG2 into a MixPre 3 or F8. The NTG2 is a decent low-cost mic. And the MixPre has really nice limiters, so you don't need to worry as much about setting levels low enough to handle unexpected spikes. The F8's limiters are OK, too. The DR60II, I don't know... but I'd --guess-- it's limiters (and preamps!) aren't as great. And while the NTG3 mic does sound better than the NTG2, it's not a great mic, just good (professionally good, mind you).

So me, I'd go with Option 1 so I can pay more attention to mic placement, subject movement (and mic placement to compensate for subject movement).

But either should be fine.

That's my take!
 
Thanks, Jim. I am just prioritizing the way I grow my kit. Often, I am soloing this so, my inclination is the Mixpre3 as it favors the guy who is juggling.

-gl
 
Check the --VERY DETAILED-- MixPre threads here (and everywhere). My thought, as a guy who owns a bunch of Sound Devices products and is considering getting a MixPre (or a competing product) for some low-profile OMB work is to give some thought to the MixPre 6. It's also quite small and the extra inputs might come in handy. I'd say it's worth the extra cost. OTOH, the Zoom F4 is on sale now for $350 at a few reputable dealers.... now, the discount probably means a F4N (or somesuch update) might be coming out soon, but the F4 appears to be a decent machine. Me, I'd still pick a MixPre over a F4. But others find the F4 to be quite capable (I'm cueing IronDave from NZ right now... ;-) ).

I think the NTG2, if you don't already own one, to be a reasonable purchase. If nothing else, as you add better mics, the NTG2 will remain a good backup, or a good mic to use when rain is pissing down, or when you need yet another mic.

In fact, while I do think the NTG3 is pretty good, I'd probably recommend instead getting a NTG2 and also a lower-priced hypercardioid (or supercardioid...let's not start that argument again). Maybe the Audix SCX1-HC, or the Audio-Technical 4053, or maybe something from Rode (I'm not quite sure what Rode model to recommend here).

And if you don't already own a NTG2, maybe also check out the Deity S-Mic 2. There was a lot of hype around that mic (so much that it bugged me), but for the price it might be a good choice (some people here own that mic and appear to like it).

Hope I'm not confusing the issue. The good news is that there are lots of reasonably price mics and recorders these days.

Others will probably chime in here soon. And then let us know what you end up getting and doing!
 
I'm buying the Mix Pre 3 to use with a the Fujifilm X-T3. But if I owned or was working with a C300 MKII or another camera with BNC TC i/o, I'd be buying the Zoom F4 closeout, such an incredible deal. The Zoom has BNC TC I/O, the Mix Pre models only via mini HDMI and the Mix Pres only have 3.5mm output wheras the Zooms have XLRs. The Sound Devices has slightly smoother preamps but the Zooms sound good too to me.

I agree with Jim on mics, if you record interiors, get a shotgun and a hyper cardioid like the Audix or AT-4053.
 
I would probably also go with option 1. My experience is that the mic pre makes a big difference. The recorder aspect of the two are not that far apart but the mic pres on the MixPre are better. And I second the limiter. I have not done enough testing with the F4 so I can't really say if they are practically OK for me but I didn't find the limiters on Tascam recorders very useful and the "limiters" on most non $$$ recorders are unusable.
 
The NTG3 is 6db more sensitive than the NTG2. That means you would have to set the gain 6db higher on the mixer/recorder to get the same level.

I bought an F8 having moved from SD 442. What a wonderful piece of equipment. It has ruined me with the functions and 8 tracks. I was concerned about the small dials, but it's not an issue. Consider that for OMB with multiple mics, you can assign each mic to a track and also assign each mic to a second track at 12db lower level giving you some protection. I also like the simultaneous recording to two SDs giving me instant backup.
 
George Loch said:
Two scenarios:

NTG 2 going into a micpre3 or F8.

-vs-

NTG 3 going into a DR60II

Which will provide the better sound?

-gl
Click to expand...
No doubt the latter combination. The NTG 3 is far superior over the NTG 2 and nothing downstream could make up for it.
 
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The whole second track at a lower level thing has always seemed kind of weird. It would only be much use if you were recording soft stuff and boosting the signal after the preamp and then got a louder sound. Most of the time when I have had clipping I don't think that would work because it has either been the mic clipping (FX sometimes gets really loud) or it's the pre clipping because the trim was too high. In both cases the lower track would just be a lower level clipped track. I guess if you are mostly doing dialog you would have more situations where it would work?
Recording to two cards at once was a big draw. I haven't actually lost a card yet but on some shoots they want to copy the card at the end of the day and if it's the only copy and it's out of my hands... Hasn't been a problem but makes me nervous. For my old recorder I have a "box" which is really just a battery powered hard drive and card reader. You stick a card in and it copies everything over. The F8 was tempting but when the F4 popped up at $350 I had to pull the plug. And I doubt that I will need more than six tracks very often.
 
Noiz2 said:
The whole second track at a lower level thing has always seemed kind of weird. .... Most of the time when I have had clipping I don't think that would work because it has either been the mic clipping (FX sometimes gets really loud) or it's the pre clipping because the trim was too high. In both cases the lower track would just be a lower level clipped track. I guess if you are mostly doing dialog you would have more situations where it would work?.
Click to expand...

I understand the mic clipping, but I don't follow the pre-clipping. The F8 lowers the trim 12db on the second channel, not the fader.
 
Cary Knoop said:
No doubt the latter combination. The NTG 3 is far superior over the NTG 2 and nothing downstream could make up for it.
Click to expand...

Seriously? The DR60II has much poorer preamps. Admittedly they are still pretty good but the noise and distortion specs are pretty far apart.
I guess if you really hate the sound of the NTG2.

My position has always been that I'm going to be using a range of mics but the recorder/ preamp is going to stay, so I opt for better on that side since a great mic will not sound great going in to a poor mic pre.
 
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Paul F said:
I understand the mic clipping, but I don't follow the pre-clipping. The F8 lowers the trim 12db on the second channel, not the fader.
Click to expand...

I guess it depends on the flow. On the flow (for a different recorder) that I saw split the signal after the mic pre. If the Zoom is splitting before the pre then yes that fail mode goes away.
 
This opinion is worth what you pay for it:

Option 2. This opinion doesn't take into account what your long term gear strategy might be, only todays question.

I am generally a Sound Devices fanboy, but own older generation gear, so I don't know if the newer MixPre's are any better than my 744t. It can't be much if any, but that is for another thread; suffice to say the 744 does well competing in any comparison. I have also owned several Tascam devices and presently use a DR100II for my backup recorder. And also own a NTG3 and some lesser shotguns including the AT875 and AT897 (direct competitors to the NTG2). So I feel somewhat qualified to answer, in this case, whether the mic will make more difference than the preamps in the recorder.

There is no doubt in my mind whether the preamps in Tascam recorders are as good as SD preamps, they aren't. But it isn't like the Tascams sounds bad, on the contrary, they sound pretty good actually, especially the newer generations. More sensitive mics really help the Tascam. The newer Tascams have improved in this regard; for example the DR100II has better preamps than the first generation. As much as I love my SD gear, at this point, my primary motivation for owning SD gear is for the superior construction, metering and limiters. Although the SD audio quality is awesome, the differences aren't huge, significant but not huge. Of course the SD preamps have more clean gain available and that is very important with any economy mics that are not as sensitive as the NTG3.

I think you will find the difference between any economy shotgun like the NTG2 and the NTG3 to be very significant. There is simply no comparison to either the AT875 or battery powered AT897. The NTG3 is in a different class altogether from any economy shotgun I have heard. The mid-range on the NTG3 is significantly better being much more full. The increased sensitivity of the NTG3 makes the recorder preamps work less hard which improves the performance of the weaker Tascam preamps. If the NTG2 is significantly better than either of the two economy AT shotguns, I would be surprised. The NTG2 has never been a very loved mic in the audio section here so you might want to consider other choices as there is plenty of new options on the market in the $300 range. Qualify that by the fact I don't own one, only a couple of competitive alternatives.

And it goes without saying that more expensive gear isn't a band-aid for poor technique.

Best Regards,
Grant
 
I've got the Rode NTG2 (1st shotgun purchased), Zoom F4*, and SD USB Pre2 (+ Schoeps CMIT5U, CMC641, AT BP4029, Audix SCX1-HC, Senn. Ambeo). The NTG2 + anything from SD is the way to go. The mic-pres and ANALOG limiters are vastly superior to anything possible with a digital limiter. The ultra clean + accurate + full mic-pres on the SD will make up for lower sensitivity of the NTG2. Later add the Audix for indoor recording and you're good to go for just about anything. When you want to upgrade mics, you'll already have a decent recording device which won't need to be upgraded, realistically, ever.

* also have the H4n and DR100II (due for eBay/Craigslist)- while the DR100II is less noisy, I don't use either because they don't sound very good, have digital limiters, and have too much self noise. For learning/YouTube/IG they are fine. The F4 is at least quiet; doesn't sound bad (not as good as FocusRite preamps), but not in the same league as anything from SD.

EDIT: here's a comparison of the NTG2 to the top industry mics (into the Sound Devices 688):

Do the more expensive mics sound better? Yes, however it's not something that a little post EQ can't match them closer. The more expensive mics earn their pay with better rejection and off axis color (lack thereof) and less self noise (less of an issue when using SD level mic-pres).

While I have the CMIT5U, I still still use the NTG2 on battery for run & gun super light/fast/low-attention (important in LA) work.
Investing in a Sennheiser G3 (or better) level wireless lav is also super useful when you can't get the mic close and/or loud ambient/reflective environment. A G3-level wireless system can be more valuable/useful vs. any shotgun or recording device/preamp if you don't have a boom operator or can't boom the mic for the shot. The G3 system isn't particularly quiet in self-noise, however where it's used there's typically ambient noise that's much higher.
 
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The MixPre can be powered by one rechargeable Sony battery (with the additional Sony battery tray), whereas with the DR60 you will be buying endless supply of AA batteries because you will never want to go into a new shoot with anything less than full batteries, especially after the first time they die on you mid-interview. So, each day, 4 new AA batteries. You can use rechargeables but will still be changing them in between interviews, just to be safe.

Anyway moral of the story, MixPre with any mic is better than the DR60 for the powering alone.
 
Here's a bit more about my thoughts:

The NTG2 is pretty good for the price, especially compared to older (but still surprisingly common) mics such as the Sennheiser K6/ME66. I don't really play in this end of the pool much, so perhap there are other low-cost mics that work, but the NTG2 is still professionally useful, imo.

The NTG3 is better, but it's not a great mic. I mean compared to the core shotguns such as the (much more expensive) Sanken CS-3e, Schoeps CMIT 5U, and DPA 4017. I guess it compares OK to the old-school 416, but while I've owned a 416 forever (well, for 20ish years...after the late-90s redesign), it doesn't see much action. The 416 sounds OK, but it's not as useful as the Sanken and Schoeps.... I feel the same about the NTG3. I've used a NTG3 for up to a week (I had a loaner for a review when it first came out), and a few times since. It's good. But I don't find the gap between it and the NTG2 to be worth it.

Again, I'd choose a lower-cost mic, and a better recorder (better in terms of features like limiters and maybe preamps)...and use the saved money to get another shorter mic.

And I'd work on my technique & placement... always the most important thing with shotgun mics.
 
Great responses folks, it's good to have a diversity of opinion.

There is a whole generation of recent shotguns from Senn and Aputure (or whatever they call themselves) for a bit more than the NTG2. I wonder if they are significantly better than the older generation NTG2 or AT897 for around $100 more.

Both the NTG2 and AT897 have the self power option which allows them to be used as a wireless shotgun with a non-phantom powered plug-on transmitter like a G3 system. This is beyond handy when you need it and is the main reason I keep the AT897. Phantom powered wireless is really expensive!

To the OP:
I made a passing reference to this and others have chimed in as well; this purchase probably isn't your endgame kit if you work professionally at some level. A MixPre could be your "permanent" recorder purchase. And the NTG3 could serve as a solid shotgun short of spending double for better, it has for me. But I would probably say that both the Tascam or NTG2 would be stepping stones to a better kit. Either one would likely become your backup gear so you might want to consider your longer term strategy before a purchase.

Grant
 
slavikb said:
The MixPre can be powered by one rechargeable Sony battery (with the additional Sony battery tray), whereas with the DR60 you will be buying endless supply of AA batteries because you will never want to go into a new shoot with anything less than full batteries, .
Click to expand...

You can use a USB powerbank to run the Tascam, which will last for ages. Use rechargable AA's inside the unit; if the powerbank goes flat, the Tascam will automagically switch to the internal batteries.
 
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