What lens best emulates the stock look of the HVX200?

TMerry

TMerry

Well-known member
What lens best emulates the stock look of the HVX200?

I got my M2 last week and bought a 50mm 1.4
I love it but its DOF is fairly narrow. I'm shopping for my next lens
and would like to buy one that I can swap out to give me
the DOF similar to the HVX200 when its wide open (zoomed out)

No, I don't want to remove the adapter. This personally takes
me too long to set it back up (unlike some of the "I can do it in under 2 min" guys on the RedRock forums LOL) .


Thanks for your suggestions!
 
Because you put more glass in front of your glass it will never be as sharp... and as for DoF... in order to get the M2 to the shallowest stock DoF, it would simply depend on your focal length and quite a bit of stopping down the lens.

Simply, you'd be best to take it off. There is no 'great' substitute.
 
Thanks Patrick. What you say makes total sense.

Though, I'm looking for a deeper depth of field, not a shallower one,
as an alternative to my 50mm.

I will be doing a shoot next week for a cooking segment.
First I will be doing a 1. wide shot of the recipe being made,
and then 2. immediately I will be doing closeups of them repeating the
same recipe and capturing the beauty of the food, prep, slicing etc.

I will not have time to pop the camera back into the M2, so I need
a lense that will give me a 'wider' look. But I do not want it to be wider
that the HVX200 would be at its zoomed out mode.

Does that make sense? I'm probablt not stating this in the correct terms :dankk2:
 
It's a little ambiguous as to whether you're talking about focal length (wide/zoom) or DOF (shallow/deep). They're two completely different considerations.

Focal length will be easy to match with adapter on or off if you have the right lenses, particularly if they're zooms. Choose an appropriately wide lens for wide...and so on. Zooms will allow you to compare adapter on/off FOVs and match more exactly.

Regarding DOF, it presents a bit of a dilemma. Since all adapters cost light efficiency, forcing lower f-stops to be used (or more light), plus the inherently shallow(er) DOF of the 35mm film plane compared to the stock camera's much smaller one, you jump right from one end of the pool to the other when you add/remove them. Where the stock HVX (like all of its competitors) tends to have frustratingly deep DOF almost all the time, adding an adapter tends to result in frustratingly *shallow* DOF (unless that's what you want, of course). To get deeper DOF with an adapter you pretty much need the fastest lens possible at the highest f-stop you can light for, and usually much more light than without. Unfortunately the M2, at least the original version, is one of the least willing to let that happen since it loses much more light than, say, a Brevis or a Letus Extreme (or, evidently, the newest M2 version). It is quite difficult in practice to get anything but shallow DOF with an original M2 unless you're outdoors in daylight or otherwise *very* well lit conditions. It's not exactly easy with the other adapters either, but considerably more so.
 
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Thanks Guys. Yes I'm talking about finding/buying a lens with a deeper DOF.

I also notice that when I set my 50mm to infinity, it will not focus on the far distance,
its effectivity stops at about 25 feet and anything beyond that is a bit blurry no matter how I try to focus it.

Forgive my naiveté, I've been doing video projects for many years, but this
M2 stuff its a bit arcane at the onset. :-)
 
TMerry said:
I also notice that when I set my 50mm to infinity, it will not focus on the far distance,
its effectivity stops at about 25 feet and anything beyond that is a bit blurry no matter how I try to focus it.
Click to expand...

Your flange focal distance is off. The M2 doesn't allow you to adjust this unfortunately.

The HVX has an equivalent FOV of 33mm at the wide end so a 35mm lens should more or less duplicate that. DOF is still going to be shallower. To get equivalent DOF you need something like a 4.2mm lens since the crop factor on the HVX is so large.
 
Huy Vu said:
Your flange focal distance is off. The M2 doesn't allow you to adjust this unfortunately.

The HVX has an equivalent FOV of 33mm at the wide end so a 35mm lens should more or less duplicate that. DOF is still going to be shallower. To get equivalent DOF you need something like a 4.2mm lens since the crop factor on the HVX is so large.
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What?

The M2 does allow you to adjust this... but not as convienient as the new Encore model or other brands. You need to open up the housing and get those little wrenches out. Adjusting the position of the spinning GG on it's 'pole' will change the Flange focus. It is basically trial and error considering you need to completely build and unbuild the unit to test it every adjustment.

Ted Spencer said:
To get deeper DOF with an adapter you pretty much need the fastest lens possible at the highest f-stop you can light for, and usually much more light than without.
Click to expand...

I don't think that is right... a 50mm lens which can only open to a f/2.8 should have the exact same DoF as a f/1.2 lens set at a f/2.8. Therefore you really don't need the fastest lens. It doesn't work like that.


TMerry said:
Thanks Patrick. What you say makes total sense.

Though, I'm looking for a deeper depth of field, not a shallower one,
as an alternative to my 50mm.

I will be doing a shoot next week for a cooking segment.
First I will be doing a 1. wide shot of the recipe being made,
and then 2. immediately I will be doing closeups of them repeating the
same recipe and capturing the beauty of the food, prep, slicing etc.

I will not have time to pop the camera back into the M2, so I need
a lense that will give me a 'wider' look. But I do not want it to be wider
that the HVX200 would be at its zoomed out mode.

Does that make sense? I'm probablt not stating this in the correct terms :dankk2:
Click to expand...



As for DoF:

If you want deep DoF... just stop the lens down... like I said before.

If you don't have enough light... then tough sh*t.... a 35mm lens adapter is mainly used for getting shallower DoF. If you want deeper DoF and the native HVX look... take off the adapter. I know it's not the answer you want, but it's your best option. The answer is easy... I think it's just your acceptance of that which is the issue. :)

There is, however, one saving grace.... if you use a wide lens, such as a 28mm, 30mm, or 32mm (maybe a 35mm) and your camera to subject distance is great enough, the DoF will be much wider. Basically wide shots with wide lenses = low DoF. But remember that wide lenses up close still can have really shallow DoF.

I hope that helps.
 
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Ryan Patrick O'Hara said:
What?

It is basically trial and error considering you need to completely build and unbuild the unit to test it every adjustment.
Click to expand...

That's what I meant, you *can* adjust it, but it's not easy if you have to take the unit apart and rebuild it. The manufacturer never intended for you to be able to make that adjustment on your own. That's why all the newer models touted "easy backfocus adjustment" as a new feature.
 
I mix 35mm adaptor footage with bare footage all the time. I think the best way to do it is simply set up your shoot so that there is time to switch the camera around. If not, you will have a HUGE headache trying to light for the 35mm adaptor at f8 or higher...just to achieve the very thing that the adaptor is trying to overcome.

Talk to your client about the limitations. If they want the 35mm look on the CU shots, force them to take a break in between takes. If the look is simply your idea and not their preference, just shoot bare for the whole thing. You will save yourself a lot of work, lights, heat and headaches.


Jason
 
AwakenedFilms said:
I mix 35mm adaptor footage with bare footage all the time. I think the best way to do it is simply set up your shoot so that there is time to switch the camera around. If not, you will have a HUGE headache trying to light for the 35mm adaptor at f8 or higher...just to achieve the very thing that the adaptor is trying to overcome.

Talk to your client about the limitations. If they want the 35mm look on the CU shots, force them to take a break in between takes. If the look is simply your idea and not their preference, just shoot bare for the whole thing. You will save yourself a lot of work, lights, heat and headaches.


Jason
Click to expand...

How have you found the matching process to be? Do you feel you are able to make it pretty transparent? Do you ever intercut adapter on/off within the same scene? What issues have you encountered with it? Thanks...
 
I really can't understand why the shallow DOF look is so objectionable on the wides, but if it is and time is an issue, just rent a second camera.
I don't know how you have your mounting system set up, but you might be able to mount the rails onto a plate and then just remove the plate. You'll still have a little drift probably.
 
you'll never get the same look as the stock hvx200 at wide angle with ANY 35mm adapter with ANY lens.

the hvx200 has a zoom lens with a focal length range of around 5mm to around 55mm (i don't have one in front of me) so the wide angle is 5mm(ish). good luck finding a 5mm lens for 35mm. and if you do it will be extreme fisheye. it's because the chip size or image plane of the hvx is 1/3" while the image plane of the redrock is 35mm. smaller image planes mean shorter lenses and vice versa. shorter lenses means deeper DOF which is why you have so much trouble getting shallow DOF out of your stock lens.

if you find that the DOF is too shallow for your taste when using a 35mm adapter, maybe you should try something a little less extreme. try a 2/3" chip cam like the hpx500 or many other eng size cams. even the 1/2" chip sony ex1 has considerably shallower DOF than the hvx200 or any 1/3" cam. these cams provide shallower DOF without the use of an adapter. that may be what you are after.


BTW, getting on and off the redrock should be very fast unless you are using a flip module. my old RR non-flip took 30 seconds to mount or dismount.
 
cheezweezl said:
you'll never get the same look as the stock hvx200 at wide angle with ANY 35mm adapter with ANY lens.

the hvx200 has a zoom lens with a focal length range of around 5mm to around 55mm (i don't have one in front of me) so the wide angle is 5mm(ish). good luck finding a 5mm lens for 35mm. and if you do it will be extreme fisheye.
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This is not correct. The focal length numbers on an HVX200 are unrelated to 35mm film plane numbers. Wide open on my HVX200A (which is a little wider than the 200) is nowhere near as wide as my 17-35 Nikon (at 17mm) on my Letus Extreme when fitted to the HVX. The indicated 5mm point on the bare HVX is equivalent to a much higher 35mm film plane-equivalent number (I haven't yet figured out the matching point but I'm gonna guess it's around 30mm on the adapter lens).

It's the same thing on an SLR. If you have a "DX" style Nikon SLR, which has a considerably smaller film plane than 35mm, you use a multiplier to calculate what the actual focal length will be with a given Nikon 35mm ("FX") lens. IIRC, that multiplier is 1.6. So a 50mm FX lens on a DX camera is equivalent to an 80mm on an FX camera. Same idea...a smaller film plane, in effect, increases the focal length of a larger format lens. The difference between an HVX200's film plane and a 35mm's is much greater, so the multiplier is much higher. I'm pulling numbers out of the air here, but I'd say it's maybe 5-7x. That's why the "5mm" HVX setting is equivalent to (roughly) 30mm with a 35mm adapter and lens.

I'm sure someone here (Barry?) has a table of some sort where the exact translations are available. Hopefully they can chime in and correct me on my guesswork numbers.
 
Ted Spencer said:
I'm sure someone here (Barry?) has a table of some sort where the exact translations are available. Hopefully they can chime in and correct me on my guesswork numbers.
Click to expand...

You're close! I think it's (4.2mm HVX) is around 32.5mm at a 35mm equivalent. But I'm not sure if that is motion picture 35mm or photography (photography is slightly larger frame).

Also, I believe the HVX200a and HPX-170 can go slightly more wide, then it's HVX200p predecessor.


EDIT: For Barry's answer... it can be found in his HVX/HPX book. He has lots of data, as I looked it up. I'll only list the extreme wide angle to telephoto conversions.

HVX200:
4.2mm=32.5mm (35mm still photography equiv)
55mm= 423mm (35mm still photography equiv)

HVX200a:
4.2mm= 30.5mm (35mm still photography equiv)
55mm= 396mm (35mm still photography equiv)

HPX170:
3.9mm= 28mm (35mm still photography equiv)
51mm = 367 (35mm still photography equiv)
 
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Ted Spencer said:
This is not correct. The focal length numbers on an HVX200 are unrelated to 35mm film plane numbers. Wide open on my HVX200A (which is a little wider than the 200) is nowhere near as wide as my 17-35 Nikon (at 17mm) on my Letus Extreme when fitted to the HVX. The indicated 5mm point on the bare HVX is equivalent to a much higher 35mm film plane-equivalent number (I haven't yet figured out the matching point but I'm gonna guess it's around 30mm on the adapter lens).

It's the same thing on an SLR. If you have a "DX" style Nikon SLR, which has a considerably smaller film plane than 35mm, you use a multiplier to calculate what the actual focal length will be with a given Nikon 35mm ("FX") lens. IIRC, that multiplier is 1.6. So a 50mm FX lens on a DX camera is equivalent to an 80mm on an FX camera. Same idea...a smaller film plane, in effect, increases the focal length of a larger format lens. The difference between an HVX200's film plane and a 35mm's is much greater, so the multiplier is much higher. I'm pulling numbers out of the air here, but I'd say it's maybe 5-7x. That's why the "5mm" HVX setting is equivalent to (roughly) 30mm with a 35mm adapter and lens.

I'm sure someone here (Barry?) has a table of some sort where the exact translations are available. Hopefully they can chime in and correct me on my guesswork numbers.
Click to expand...

5mm is 5mm. The sensor/ground glass size is what changes the field of view. However, since the question was about depth of field, it is the same on every 5mm lens. If you want the same DOF as the stock HVX200 lens gets at Xmm at f-stop Y, you will get it with a Xmm lens on any camera at f-stop Y.

What you're talking about is commonly referred to as the conversion factor.
 
If you are using the original M2 you have chosen an adapter which has the least DOF of any of the major choices out there (in addition to the most diffusion and the most loss of light). If you want an adapter with significantly more DOF switch to a Brevis. (less light loss and sharper also.)

If you want to switch between a bare lens and an adapter get Black Pro Mist 1/8 and 1/4 and experiment with those when you pull off your adapter ( or match in post).

Forget about trying to get a 35mm lens that will give you the DOF of your HVX without an extreme wide angle. No can do.

Lenny Levy
 
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ProfessorU said:
5mm is 5mm. The sensor/ground glass size is what changes the field of view. However, since the question was about depth of field, it is the same on every 5mm lens. If you want the same DOF as the stock HVX200 lens gets at Xmm at f-stop Y, you will get it with a Xmm lens on any camera at f-stop Y.
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^Misleading. What you say is true *only if the cameras have the same imaging plane size*, and the question pertained to an HVX with or without an adapter. The adapter's film plane size difference as it affects DOF (larger = shallower for a given f-stop and lens) so completely outweighs any 'lens DOF factor' that the latter is almost a moot point. The DOF you will *actually get* in either case is overwhelmingly determined by imager/GG size, then f-stop, then (almost insignificantly in this case) lens focal length.

Unless I'm completely missing some other point you're making, that is... : )

In any case, the only practical solution for him to get both very deep and very shallow DOF without adding/removing the adapter is (as you suggested earlier) to bring a second camera.
 
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ProfessorU said:
5mm is 5mm. The sensor/ground glass size is what changes the field of view. However, since the question was about depth of field, it is the same on every 5mm lens. If you want the same DOF as the stock HVX200 lens gets at Xmm at f-stop Y, you will get it with a Xmm lens on any camera at f-stop Y.
Click to expand...

Sure, what you are saying is technically true. A 5mm lens on an HVX should have the same DoF characteristics of a 5mm 35mm lens (set at same focus distance and f-stop)... but that only true on paper and in theory.

In practice, where we put this science to good use, it becomes irrelevant. Although the image plane (sensor/groundglass size) does not effect the DoF it does dramatically change the FoV, in essance ruining the composition you desired. To fix this, you will either need to change the subject to camera distance or use another focal length, hence changing the DoF. This is why it seems (and occurs) that larger formats have inherently shallower DoF.

I guess this is what Cheezweezl was saying, so again we are being led around in circles by someone who seems to be slightly confusing DoF and FoV, unless he wants exactly the same DoF AND FoV as the stock lens... which goes back to much earlier in the thread where we all told him to take off the adapter! :)

If he is unwilling to compromise DoF or FoV, then he is starting to try and defy physics on the basis of not wanting to remove a lens adapter. I think we are starting to look silly trying to cater to his laziness.

I'm just going to stop and let him figure it out the hard way. :beer:

ProblemSolving.jpg
 
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