What k do camcorders record at?

Chamber005

Chamber005

Carbonite Member
So I'm completely confused. I have an older cam (DSR200) that I can switch between 32k and 48k that also has XLR inputs. My camcorder just has Dolby Digital 2 channels (AC-3 2 ch)

I don't understand what that means. I looked up AC-3, and its specifications just say that it can "record up to 48k". Does that mean my camcorder (HF200) is recording the same thing as my cam with the XLR inputs?

And by the by, my bigger cam with the XLR inputs also has a mini jack -- would recording through the mini jack be the same as recording via the XLR input?

Because I'm on such a sickening budget, my only option has been to record the audio onto my bigger cam, strip it from the DV tape and then synch it up with the HD cam. I'm just wondering if they're capable of recording the same thing (via an XLR adapter of course) and thus I'm just overworking myself.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!!
 
As a standard, 48K is what is ultimately on a normal stereo audio DVD. (remember, that terminology is about digital recording). But there are many pro cameras that can record at higher sample rates. AC-3 is a codec used to digitally encode the audio. When it says "up to 48k" it means that is at the highest level of recording. With nothing else bogging it down. I would have to see if that CC shares any of the cpu between audio and video, or if they have seperate chips.

For those reading this, it might be a good time to explain Sample Rate and Bit Depth. Sample rate is how many time a second "a snapshot" of the sound is taken, and Bit depth is how detailed that snapshot is. So 48k/16b is 48,000 pictures taken every sec with each pic being 4 4 byte words. Bit depth also translates roughly into dynamic range (think resolution on a camera).

I wouldn't use the mini jack for audio in, unless absolutely necessary. The XLR's provide a much more positive connection.

As to using two cameras (1-audio, other-video) it can be done, but make sure you have timecode, framerate, and audio rates(bit and sample) the same. On the one cam, I know it is hard to tell. Otherwise syncing things up is going to be a "you-know-what", and maybe impossible.

Try this: set both cameras up. start recording on both, stand in front of them, and clap once a second for a minute using a 4 count beat, heavy on the first of every four (CLAP, clap, clap, clap). Then import the footage from both cameras. Try to align them. That will answer your question definitively.
 
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Doc Bernard said:
As a standard, 48K is what is ultimately on a normal stereo audio DVD. (remember, that terminology is about digital recording). But there are many pro cameras that can record at higher sample rates. AC-3 is a codec used to digitally encode the audio. When it says "up to 48k" it means that is at the highest level of recording. With nothing else bogging it down. I would have to see if that CC shares any of the cpu between audio and video, or if they have seperate chips.

For those reading this, it might be a good time to explain Sample Rate and Bit Depth. Sample rate is how many time a second "a snapshot" of the sound is taken, and Bit depth is how detailed that snapshot is. So 48k/16b is 48,000 pictures taken every sec with each pic being 4 4 byte words. Bit depth also translates roughly into dynamic range (think resolution on a camera).

I wouldn't use the mini jack for audio in, unless absolutely necessary. The XLR's provide a much more positive connection.

As to using two cameras (1-audio, other-video) it can be done, but make sure you have timecode, framerate, and audio rates(bit and sample) the same. On the one cam, I know it is hard to tell. Otherwise syncing things up is going to be a "you-know-what", and maybe impossible.

Try this: set both cameras up. start recording on both, stand in front of them, and clap once a second for a minute using a 4 count beat, heavy on the first of every four (CLAP, clap, clap, clap). Then import the footage from both cameras. Try to align them. That will answer your question definitively.
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Hm. I'll do that. Thanks

And just in case I can squeeze a couple more pennies loose for this production, is it incredibly challenging to synch video to a DAT recording? I just assumed that you mark the start point of your video/audio synch and go with it.

The only reason I ask about DAT recording is because they have some pretty cheap stationary ones, and since we're only shooting in one location, it MIGHT work...
 
Doc Bernard said:
Depends on if your DAT has timecode in/out as well as your camera
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Geez, I'm pretty certain that my HF200 doesn't have timecode in/out. I think youy need a higher end cam for that.

Also, the stationary DATs I'm looking at -- I'm not sure that they have timecode either.

There isn't some general application for synching 30fps?

I've spent all my learning hours leading up to this project on lighting and directing because I was SUPPOSED to have a sound guy helping me; but since that fell through I'm like scrambling to figure out some quick fix sound stuff. Pain in the buttocks, for real, but it is what it is -- and I guess I should know as much as I can about every aspect regardless. I just thought I could learn more about sound down the road, not necessarily right this friggin second, ya know?

But yeah -- any tips on using a DAT without timecode? There will be numerous cuts, so if it falls out of synch after a minute or so, that's fine. I can stop and restart the audio recording as much as is deemed necessary
 
Would the recordings from this sound okay:

The Zoom H4 Handy Digital Recorder fits in your palm and is ideal for recording live musical performances, interviews, podcasts, meetings, classes and seminars. The H4 allows you to record 24-bit/96 kHz digital audio as well as in MP3 format with bitrates up to 320kbps.
The H4 features two studio-quality electret condenser microphones configured in an X/Y pattern for true stereo recording. It also includes 2 combination XLR-1/4-inch input jacks with phantom power for use with any external microphones of your choice. And the H4 is loaded with on-board studio effects such as compression, limiting and mic modeling. An 1/8-inch headphone jack is also provided for monitoring.
 
probably useful to also note that you have bitrate and sample depth, as mentioned here, but then to confuse it even more, compression formats, so mp3 aac etc. .wav files are uncompressed - so in the audio world, high bit and sample rates with no compression at all are the most 'truthful'. If compression is used to shrink files then however good the algorithm, quality has been lost - maybe a tiny bit, maybe a lot. Connecting audio equipment is often difficult because some kit happily changes one format to another, but if at some stage, you had 96KHz sampling at 24 bit converted to 32KHz 16 bit, then from that moment, going back up again is pretty pointless.

Audio formats often get really mixed up in video work, as audio always comes second best, and very often as long as the audio meters move when recording, nobody worries.
 
paulears said:
probably useful to also note that you have bitrate and sample depth, as mentioned here, but then to confuse it even more, compression formats, so mp3 aac etc. .wav files are uncompressed - so in the audio world, high bit and sample rates with no compression at all are the most 'truthful'. If compression is used to shrink files then however good the algorithm, quality has been lost - maybe a tiny bit, maybe a lot. Connecting audio equipment is often difficult because some kit happily changes one format to another, but if at some stage, you had 96KHz sampling at 24 bit converted to 32KHz 16 bit, then from that moment, going back up again is pretty pointless.

Audio formats often get really mixed up in video work, as audio always comes second best, and very often as long as the audio meters move when recording, nobody worries.
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So...is the H4 okay or,,,?
 
Let's see. The AC3 is a compressed format so no they are not going to be the same. You should NEVER use 32k sampling rate it's a nonstandard, standard ie 32 is not used widely and a lot of recordings at 32 ONLY play back on the device (make) they were recorded on. Up to 48k, means you can set it below 48K, it's not going to shift around on you. All the devices you have mentioned are "self resolving", which means in theory they will all play back at the same speed they recorded at with no drift. In reality tape drifts, but not much. So for normal takes (under 5 min) you should see no drift at all. Long takes you probably will see a little drift, but on the order of a frame an hour or so. Time Code doesn't not do anything to help with drift. It was used in that capacity with analog recorders but it has no where near enough resolution to sync digital streams. For example the highest resolution TC is capable of is the sub frame and the smallest subframe division is 1/100th of a frame. At NTSC video speeds that translates to around 1/300 of a second. At 48k 160 samples have gone by. So what syncs digital streams is "word clock". Unless your going to wire everything up with try level sync (which non of the recorders nor I think any of the camcorders, are capable of) your going to have to just slate and post sync. None of the ones you have mentioned should drift enough to worry about, the old camcorder is probably the most likely to drift. So pick you poison, but don't sweat too hard. And you don't really need to worry much about TC. That wasn't the case till recently but even in the hayday of TC running everything the SZ Film Center (Mosquito Coast, the English Patient, etc) didn't own a TC DAT. Nagra's (the king of recorders till DAT came around) almost never had TC, it was only an option at the very end of it's rule.

Personally I would go with the h4n. DAT is fine but it's dead and tapes are getting hard to find and you have to transfer them.
 
Noiz2 said:
Updated version, but yes you want the H4N not the H4.
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So luckily I got my contraption to work with phantom power supplied via a 44 dollar Xenyx 502 mixer. I would have been completely depressed had I had to spend the extra cash on an H4N. So now I'm recording using my XLR mics at 48k. Not the best in the world, but for online-only shorts I'm happy.
 
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