What is the DEAL with ASCAP?

[Chamber005]

Has anyone here ever actually gotten any response from ASCAP? I dug up phone numbers to try and contact them after all of my attempts using their (preferred) methods received no response, but the automated service will only deal with you if you already have an account with them.

I dont know what kind of account I actually need, how the different sorts of pricing works -- their website is informative if you're an internet radio station, but if you want to play 2 or 3 songs on your site, I can't find any information on what sort of license I would need. No wonder most people just say "screw it" and don't get a license. This is way too dramatic.

And don't even get me started on trying to deal with record labels regarding this. If I was going to be playing XYZ song in a film or short they're totally willing to work with you, but since everyone acts like the internet is some alien configuration it's like you can't get a straight answer from anyone.

So, does anyone here own a website where they play music but that is not a radio station (e.g. playing a variety of music throughout the day)? If so, what kind of ASCAP license do you hold? I'm trying to do the right thing here, but so far it's just frustration met with more frustration.

 

[Chris Santucci]

ASCAP is not who you deal with for licensing.

To license music you need to deal with 2 entities:

1) Record label for "sync rights" (the actual recording)

2) Publisher for "master rights" (the written music)

ASCAP lists the publishers of music tracks and finding record labels should be pretty straightforward.

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[Steve House]

ASCAP is not who you deal with for licensing.

To license music you need to deal with 2 entities:

1) Record label for "sync rights" (the actual recording)

2) Publisher for "master rights" (the written music)

ASCAP lists the publishers of music tracks and finding record labels should be pretty straightforward.

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Actually it depends on the usage, Chris. You're correct if the OP wants to use a song in the soundtrack of a film or video where it's juxtaposed to images. But if it's a webcasting site that streams music for users to listen to, in contrast to showing videos with music in the soundtrack, then it is a performance rights issue, not a sync rights issue, and ASCAP (or BMI or SESAC, whichever society the song's owners belong to) is the place that handles it. OTOH, if the OP wants to make songs available on his site for visitors to download or on-demand streaming, that's a reproduction right and needs a mechanical licence - Harry Fox Agency is the goto place for reproduction licensing (http://harryfox.com/public/licenseeServicesDigital.jsp).

Chamber - just what exactly is it that you want to do? If people come to your site to passively listen to music that you're streaming, seems like that would make you a web radio station and ASCAP is who you need to deal with. OTOH, if you're making it available for people to download, like iTunes, or to listen to interactively on demand, then you need to contact Harry Fox. Or are you playing the music in some other context?

 

[Chris Santucci]

Steve, when you say "ASCAP is the place that handles it" what exactly do you mean by that?

I've obtained master and sync rights for use of music in films in the past and I've never dealt with ASCAP.

Take this title for example: http://www.ascap.com/ace/search.cfm?requesttimeout=300

It lists the publisher which would be the entity that you'd contact to obtain sync rights, right?

How is ASCAP (or BMI, etc.) in any way involved with this process? Just wondering.

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[Steve House]

Steve, when you say "ASCAP is the place that handles it" what exactly do you mean by that?

I've obtained master and sync rights for use of music in films in the past and I've never dealt with ASCAP.

Take this title for example: http://www.revostock.com/Stock-Video-Footage/43362/Virus-01.htm

It lists the publisher which would be the entity that you'd contact to obtain sync rights, right?

How is ASCAP (or BMI, etc.) in any way involved with this process? Just wondering.

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What does performance rights a la ASCAP or sync rights have to do with licensing a silent video clip???

Perhaps I wasn't clear - if the OP isn't syncing music to images, he doesn't need sync rights, correct? You are absolutely correct that ASCAP isn't involved if he wants to incorporate music into a film or video soundtrack. But if he wants to play music on his website for his visitor's pleasure WITHOUT syncing it to images, perhaps as background music while they're viewing his site but not specifically synchronized to the particualar images they're seeing, then he's got to deal with performance rights which ARE within ASCAP's (or BMI or SESAC) purview. And if he wants to make it available for download or on-demand streaming he's got to deal with mechanical rights, probably through Harry Fox.

 

[Chris Santucci]

It's my understanding that "sync" rights refers to the actual written lyrics and written music (publishing) which you would license when you wanted to either re-record the piece for use, or when you wanted to also license the actual recording (master, or mechanical rights).

The OP mentions wanting to "play 2 or 3 songs on [his] site." To me, that is a licensing issue and I have no idea what you mean by "syncing" music to images. Licensing music is licensing music. You deal with the publisher AND/or the record label unless you're looking to license "public performance" rights which you would do through ASCAP.

I'm not sure where use on the interweb would be gotten from, but I doubt it comes under the heading of "public performance."

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[Steve House]

It's my understanding that "sync" rights refers to the actual written lyrics and written music (publishing) which you would license when you wanted to either re-record the piece for use, or when you wanted to also license the actual recording (master, or mechanical rights).

The OP mentions wanting to "play 2 or 3 songs on [his] site." To me, that is a licensing issue and I have no idea what you mean by "syncing" music to images. Licensing music is licensing music. You deal with the publisher AND/or the record label unless you're looking to license "public performance" rights which you would do through ASCAP.

I'm not sure where use on the interweb would be gotten from, but I doubt it comes under the heading of "public performance."

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Nope - licensing music is NOT just licensing music - there are different types of licenses depending on just exactly what you're going to do with the music. Sync specifically occurs when the words and music are being combined with images to form a new, copyrightable work. Yes, you are licensing the words and music with a sync license, you've got that right, but they are being licensed specifically for use in the sound track of a film or video. (I suppose use in a multimedia slide show would be considered "synchronizing" as well.) The sync license lets you use the words and music, not a pre-existing recording of them. Again, you are correct that to use someone's recording requires you must also obtain a master use license. Record it yourself, you just need the sync license. Use someone else's recording, you need both the sync and master use. But use on a web site is not synchronizing to images.

"Master" and "mechanical" are two different things and both are distinct from the sync license. Recording your own version of the song, a cover, and distributing it as a music recording requires the mechanical license, not the sync license. With the mechanical, the work is being distributed in a phonorecording; with the sync it is being distributed in a film or video. If you're going to distribute copies of an existing recording, I think you'll need the mechanical from the publisher and also the master use from the owner of the recording you wish to redistribute. Perform your own cover and all you need is the mechanical. Making music available for download or on-demand streaming would be considered distribution of copies.

Playing a recording for something other than your personal listening requires a performance license. Virtually any use except playing it for yourself or friends and family is a public performance ... broadcasting a radio station, a juke box in a bar, a dj at a wedding, the background music on your dentist's PA, the music on hold while you're waiting to talk to customer service at the bank, the music in your office elevator or grocery store PA, all are public performances that need to be licensed through ASCAP. Playing it on your website falls into that sort of use, very much akin to broadcasting in that anyone tuning in to your site hears the music.

I stand by my original advice to the OP - if he wants to play it as background music while people are viewing his website, he needs a performance license from ASCAP (or BMI or SESAC). If he wants to make it available for download or listening on-demand, he need the mechanical from Harry Fox. If he wants to make someone else's recording available for download, he needs to talk to the record label. Frankly, the whole issue is complicated enough he should talk to an IP attorney - this is not the place for DIY.

 

[Chris Santucci]

I never had a need to license usage rights for public venues or for web use but I have successfully licensed a half-dozen tracks myself for use in films and it's really quite easy.

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[Steve House]

I never had a need to license usage rights for public venues or for web use but I have successfully licensed a half-dozen tracks myself for use in films and it's really quite easy.

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Sync and master licenses can be easy, they can be hard, or they can be impossible. Licensing tracks from Magnatunes is a piece of cake and takes maybe 5 minutes. Licensing a track from SonicFire's library is a no-brainer, it's royalty free so you just buy the library disk. But licensing the current #1 hit on the Billboard charts, whatever that might be this week, or a performance by the New York Philharmonic and the Metropolitan Opera could get tricky. Cutting through the red tape and knowing who to call is why music rights clearance houses are in business. I suggest the OP sit down with an IP attorney not because its so hard to get a license but he needs to go over in detail with someone knowledgeable exactly what he intends to do so he knows what kind of licenses he needs.

 

[Chris Santucci]

I guess...

I've also heard people say you should hire an attorney to copyright art, which makes no sense since it couldn't be easier for a lay person to do themselves.

Anytime I ever contacted a label or music publisher it was always as simple as telling them what use I wanted for what track and them telling me what the cost would be. Done. An attorney isn't going to make it cost less for "the current #1 hit on the Billboard charts" or "a performance by the New York Philharmonic and the Metropolitan Opera," are they? And I don't see how they have the ability to make it any easier either although I suppose maybe in rare instances they might.

Every label has a licensing department and dealing with them is pretty straightforward in my experience. Music publishers, in my experience have always gotten back to me pretty quickly and were as easy to deal with as the labels even when I was asking for only festival rights.

The biggest issues I ever came across was when their were multiple authors of tracks because each one had to get paid and they all wanted to be paid the same amount.

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[Steve House]

I guess...

I've also heard people say you should hire an attorney to copyright art, which makes no sense since it couldn't be easier for a lay person to do themselves.

Anytime I ever contacted a label or music publisher it was always as simple as telling them what use I wanted for what track and them telling me what the cost would be. Done. An attorney isn't going to make it cost less for "the current #1 hit on the Billboard charts" or "a performance by the New York Philharmonic and the Metropolitan Opera," are they? And I don't see how they have the ability to make it any easier either although I suppose maybe in rare instances they might.

Every label has a licensing department and dealing with them is pretty straightforward in my experience. Music publishers, in my experience have always gotten back to me pretty quickly and were as easy to deal with as the labels even when I was asking for only festival rights.

The biggest issues I ever came across was when their were multiple authors of tracks because each one had to get paid and they all wanted to be paid the same amount.

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Your certainly right about that - an attorney isn't needed to secure a copyright on your work. And the OP very likely doesn't need one to do the legwork for him to secure the licenses on the music he wants to use either. But some professional advice on EXACTLY what licenses he needs after reviewing the precise usages he has in mind and perhaps the business model of his site operation with him certainly couldn't hurt.

Thing is, you're talking about securing rights to use the music in a soundtrack. And you're aboslutely right - for sync and master rights you go directly to the publisher and record label respectively. But that's not what our OP wanted to use it for. His application sounds like it's going to be an audio podcast, much like broadcasting the music on a radio station. Sounds like a performance rights issue to me, the same rights a radio or TV station must obtain. You approach the label to secure perfortmance rights and they're going to refer you to ASCAP. You approach the publisher for a mechanical to record a cover and they'll send you to Harry Fox.