What is the audio protocol for theater sound

I

Indyreel

Well-known member
My film "Dark Disciple" has been approved for a one week premiere in a single theater at a huge theater chain. I want the sound to be as good as I can make it, so could anyone give me the correct rules regarding audio protocol?

i.e. -

1) Should all dialogue be on mono tracks?
2) Should all sound effects be stereo?
3) Should all music be stereo?

I could really use some professional input.
:dankk2:
 
Have your project edited by someone who knows what they are doing and have it mixed by a professional on a certified dub stage.

If that's not feasible, let us know your budget and the equipment and facilities available to you.
 
Unfortunately, my budget is shot. Therefore, I am going to try and set up most of the audio myself then send it out for a final polish by a pro. I know that this is not ideal but it is the only option I have right now. That is why I am asking for someone to answer the questions I listed above.
 
By the questions you ask, ( dialogue be on mono tracks? sound effects be stereo? music be stereo? ), suggests you have little to no post audio experience, and you're in BIG trouble. Get a loan and have it done right by an experienced pro., because you get a second shot if the sound is awful.. and even the best shot pictures of all time won't save it.

PS, I need an appendectomy, does anyone know a doctor who can tell how to do this myself?
 
Indyreel said:
My film "Dark Disciple" has been approved for a one week premiere in a single theater at a huge theater chain. I want the sound to be as good as I can make it, so could anyone give me the correct rules regarding audio protocol?

i.e. -

1) Should all dialogue be on mono tracks?
2) Should all sound effects be stereo?
3) Should all music be stereo?

I could really use some professional input.
:dankk2:
Click to expand...

Dialog, mono and centered.

FX are not necessarily stereo but they are generally put in the stereo field, don't get crazy with pans though hard left is a LOT farther from center on a big screen than a small one.

Music usually would be stereo, but it doesn't have to be.

Normally the idea is to have the dialog in the center speakers and keep everything else except Foley out of the center.

You are working in two channels so your "center" is a phantom center created when you pan it center.

Two things to watch out for though. You need to know if they are going to send your mix through the matrix. This would be normal for 35mm film but not for video, so it really depends if they are doing a lot of video and know how to set that up or if they have the same guy just running your mix through the same setup they use for 35mm.

The two issues with the matrix are that film will also be Dolby SR encoded and if they leave that in the chain your sound will sound AWFUL, I mean REALLY BAD. So they MUST switch out the noise reduction. The second issue that you can kind of check ahead of time is that the matrix "decodes" a two channel sound track (called the LtRt (Left Total, Right Total)) into 4.0 surround. The decoder can get fooled by sounds that have phase issues (another reason to make sure your dialog is all mono) and "fly" some sounds into the surrounds. This most commonly happens with music that has a bunch of FX on it (phasey guitar for example). You can check for this problem in your mix by playing it through a ProLogic decoder and seeing if anything shows up in the surrounds. You just need a "home theatre" with working surround speakers and a receiver that you can specify ProLogic for playback.

If you talk to them and they are not going to send your mix through the Dolby Matrix then you don't have to worry about any of that.

In terms of mixing. You should do it on decent speakers in a good room (assuming you can't go to an actual mix stage). But you should also play it back on the best home system in the biggest room you can talk someone into letting you use. Things sound different in a bigger space, a LOT different.

Also if you are doing the mixing on your film err on the side of the dialog being a bit louder than you think necessary. YOU know the script your audience doesn't. You will loose them the minute they start struggling to understand what people are saying. This is VERY common with folks mixing their own films.

Good luck. It is a major rush to see something you worked on on the BIG screen.
 
In your other topic you are about to send off the movie for rating - without the score being included. You're in a bit of a mess if you haven't even done the basic mix yet, but you're needing to send it for rating before it's even half finished. What are you up to? It seems that you've managed somehow to get a chain to take a movie that doesn't as yet even have any sound - no music, no dialogue or effects actually exist. How on earth did you get a deal?

If you have got screenings arranged - what medium do they want it delivered on? The cinema (us Brits can't call a Cinema a Theatre) replay format is pretty important. If they do a lot of outside video playback, they could just be expecting you to give them a DVD or Blueray with simple 2 channel sound - it's worth finding out before you start surround mixing - because then you are going to need a much better mixing system. I don't do this myself, but my audio studio system can do 5.1 sound, but every attempt I have made to produce a decent test mix - with central dialogue plus music and effects to the other channels, it sounds dreadful compared to a commercial DVD on my main replay system at home. You have a HUGE learning curve, so find out what they actually need. Many film festivals here have much simpler audio requirements that play fine in stereo.
 
Paulears, I may have miss worded something. I have ALL of the main soundtrack, dialogue, sound effects, etc. roughed at this point, but only a temp track for the music. I'm laying the new tracks in now from my composer, but want to comply with cinema standards if I can. Right now the film sounds great in stereo on a home theater system. I just don't know if this will fly on a cinema surround sound system.

Regarding the excellent input that followed your initial question; thank you very much. And thank you also to Noiz2 for your excellent, in depth help.
 
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I would submit a stereo mix. Unless there's someone who really knows what their doing, a 5:1 mix can really get messed up w/ down conversion or being improperly calibrated. (common) I've been in many main stream theaters that don't even have multi-channel playback, in fact, a few were mono.
The same goes for film festivals.
 
What would be the biggest complaint if the audio was done completely mono. I realize in this day and age, mono seems almost like watching a silent film... but for a limited budget, and attendant limited ability to get someone who 'knows what they are doing'...

Why not mono?

(Just to show that I'm 'equal opportunity', I've often thought that more DSLR shooters should shoot for B&W(monochrome) rather than worry about the myriad of problems having to do with 'cheap lights', and 'limited dynamic range', and attendant limited ability to do major post color work...).
 
Mono is actually a good place to start mixing as it teaches you how to balance out things as you have limited space to put everything.

Stereo is fine for most theatre delivery and to attempt 5.1 could end up in a disaster as others have said, as for levels you need a sound mixer who knows how to mix for theatre or cinema as the dynamics are totally different to that of TV and DVD although I have done numerous TV mixes that sound fine in the cinema too.
 
Well, no reason at all. Woody Allen famously prefers mono and all or most of his films are mixed in mono. But there is really no reason not to do stereo.
The advantages are that the phantom center will add to the clarity of the dialog and you can get a fuller sound.

I would also agree that most folks would benefit from working in B&W. It's much better for composition. If you can learn to compose in B&W your color work will look better.

OP:

For the theatrical there are basically three choices. The most likely IF they are set up for low budget video playback is that they will patch you into the L & R speakers and you will be in stereo. This is the least problematic for you. IF your mix sounds good on a home theatre and a fairly big room there is a good chance it will sound pretty close in a real theatre.

The second is that they play it through the matrix with out SR. This is trickier. IF you don't have any weird phase issues then it should come out pretty much the same as the stereo mix except that you will be using the center speakers and very low stuff will get filtered into the sub. You will probably also get some small amount of bleed into the surround speakers. BUT if you do have phase issues that you haven't checked and fixed you will have random sounds, music and possibly even dialog (if you didn't make sure it was all mono) fly randomly into the surrounds. That will be VERY distracting.

The third is not good at all. And that is the Matrix with SR. The only way that sounds decent is if you encode the mix in SR, and that will take a studio AND the SR mix will sound AWFUL if not decoded.

As far as I know there is no practical way other than a discrete (six channel) mix to theatrical play a real surround mix.
All of the release formats require a license and the most common Dolby Digital needs to be mixed on a certified stage, have a license, and only works if you deliver on 35mm*. *With the Digital Cinema take over there must be a non 35mm delivery so there is probably a way around the film issue but the $12K + for the license is probably a stopper. If not hiring a stage at $450 an hour for a few days will be.

You can kind of sneak in with the little version of Dolby Digital on a DVD, but you really don't want to see a DVD blown up to big screen size. BlueRay will look better and I think supports discrete tracks but it also requires a license. Less than the DD but still a lot for a low budget.

Now there is the "little" digital cinema format. I don't know how common that is right now. IF the theatre can play that then that is probably the way to go. I believe you can use it with out paying a fee and it will do HD and multitrack sound.

Mixing in mono translates quite well up and down screen sizes. Stereo you need to be careful because the mix does sound different as you change size.
Surround is VERY tricky to do well, and you can't do it in a non calibrated bedroom studio and expect it to work. IF you can test the mixes out in a big space and do fixes you might get an acceptable mix but it will be hit and miss.

My reading of the OP's situation was that he had a stereo mix and wanted to make sure it would play decently in a big theatre, so the surround topic is really not applicable to this case.
 
Okay, I have taken everyone's advice and ditched my surround sound plan, as I want to keep it safe. What I've done now is (Using Avid MC5) taken all my dialogue and put it on tracks one and two (as mono) then taken all the sound effects and placed them on (mono) tracks three through twelve. Then I have placed the music on a Stereo track.

Four questions:
1) Is this setup good or does it need to be changed?
2) Can I have two stereo tracks (to blend and crossfade music as needed)?
3) Can I have additional dialogue on tracks three and four (for when people talk over eachother) or does all dialogue need to stay on tracks one and two to come out of the center speakers?
4) When I export this project should I mixdown all tracks or will this mess up the mono and stereo setup?
 
You have to mix the film, they are not going to play all those tracks. Can't you get anyone local who knows something about film sound to give you a hand? If you are not in the middle of nowhere there is probably someone around.

The short answer to the post is you can have as many tracks as you want. You are going to hand the theatre a video with one stereo sound track on it. So what ever you have in your project doesn't make any difference to them.
 
" I have taken everyone's advice and ditched my surround sound plan"
> Yet you state "center speaker" so I gather you are confused. If audio is panned to the center it will have the 'illusion' of emanating from the center. (aka, phantom center) Regarding overlapping dialog, that depends what the director wants. IT NEEDS TO BE MIXED.
I mix the S/FX in the stereo field and/or if they were properly recorded, i.e., phase issues. Again stereo placement is ultimately up to the director's desire and approval.
Sorry to say, I think you're in over your head.
 
I am over my head with audio, but am learning to dog-paddle for now. I took your earlier advice to heart and plan on bringing in an audio engineer later. I just want to get all the pieces together for them before I submit it.
 
Just want to thank all of you for your input on the audio for my theatrical Premiere of "Dark Disciple". The video and audio conversion to DCP came out great. I'm thankful to all who gave me input on how to do the audio for the theater showing. The audio came out awesome (and even sounded like surround sound).
 
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