What every newb filmmaker should know. (My Top 5)

And you are artists, not engineers.
Depends on who the "you" is though.

A producer is an artist of "the deal", packaging together a director, a cast, a script, and financiers, in order to create a perfect storm where everyone gets what they want, and (ideally) the audience gets a great experience -- although that is not necessarily the producer's prime goal.

A director (IMO) should be a visual storyteller, whose focus should be on making the very best film possible given the circumstances that they're handed (which may involve limited budget, or casting as required by the producer, etc). The director is the one who should (IMO) be most concerned with the audience's experience.

The cinematographer is an artist and a technician and an engineer. Someone who specifically uses tools to create art. And isn't necessarily concerned with the overall story being told, but is more concerned with making each frame tell the story of that particular scene.

The writer is purely a storyteller, and need not have any interest in the crafting, technicals, or engineering of a motion picture.

Which brings us to -- the "filmmaker". Don't even really know what that person is, in the traditional sense, but in today's world that term probably applies to the do-it-all-yourselfer who seems to be the majority of DVXUsers here. This is a person who isn't specifically a writer, or a cinematographer, or a director, but is someone who finances, writes, shoots, directs, and edits their own material. And that's a whole different breed. There aren't many (if any) of those folks anymore in "hollywood", this is primarily (IMO) the domain of today's DSLR/prosumer equipment user, who does much of the work themselves or with the borrowed assistance of friends, or has a micro budget and spends what they can on who they can. And it is this person who we are probably all talking about or around, who may or may not be that concerned with an audience's reaction, who may or may not even have had their script read by anyone else, who may or may not care whether the finished product is sellable or of appeal to anyone other than themselves. They don't (necessarily) have bosses they answer to, they frequently don't know (or care) how the system "works" or even to be a part of the system. They want to "make films", period. Not necessarily for an audience, or for wide distribution, or for financial gain, although they may certainly desire all of those. To me, this is a mindset and mentality very different from, say, the cinematographer who eats, breathes, and sleeps American Cinematographer and watching the works of Kovacs or Hall, who actively hires himself out on other people's jobs for a good living, who makes it his job to know the equipment and the lights and the framing and staging and movement and dynamics of a scene etc. To me, the "filmmaker" is more likely to be a beginner, a hobbyist, or a dilettante. Most established folks that I know of, who make a living in the industry or who intend to, focus on one of the professions and call themselves that -- "producer", "director", "cinematographer", "writer". But sometimes you get somebody like George Lucas, who has the wherewithal and the experience, who has the money and the connections, who can do absolutely everything his own way, and who doesn't necessarily even care what the audience thinks of what they've done, and someone like that would certainly be entitled to choose the title "filmmaker" if they so chose.

So before we all go telling each other that "you're thinking the wrong way", it would be nice to recognize that not everyone shares the same goals.
 
The bitterness comes from the snobbery and the diminishing of a way of making films that I feel strongly about. And if a bit of light-hearted sarcasm and the use of the word idiot is borderline offensive, then, well, I don't really know what to say. Man up, I suppose.
 
What I am against is both extremes. Do I want to work for Asylum and direct "Aliens Vs Predatorys" (Or pick your favorite Asylum classic and insert here). Where it's all about packaging a product without giving a rat's ass about the art/craft of film making, not really. On the other hand, the high minded "arty" crap gets pretty old. Sure, it's art, so is a really beautiful welding job, so what, who cares. Film is is the "art" of telling a story with moving pictures (and sound). If you tell a bad story or communicate that story badly or don't bother to tell a story at all (in a way that an audience has any hope of understanding it), then what have you done.... You've failed at the fundamental point of the whole exercise.
 
"You think Terrence Malick thought about the audience when he made those CGI scenes of dinosaurs and the creation of the universe in Tree of Life?"

Um. Dinosaurs are one of the biggest areas of interest for kids all over the globe. Have been for decades. You may recall a small introspective personal project called Jurassic Park? I'm not sure how anyone could make a coherent argument that dinosaurs are a personal exploration, seeing as they predate all of humanity by millions of years. The entire point of the example you cite is to bring the whole population together on a concept that has relevance to everyone, the creation of our planet. It's blatantly the opposite of the point you're trying to make. It has universal relevance and significance, the opposite of a selfish, personal story.

Noe's treatment of rape is also of wider significance than just his personal pet peeves. This example is similarly off base. Rape is a common crime and often the perpetrator escapes justice, as would happen in this film if not for the actions of the protagonist. But is it justice or revenge? Is the vigilante route a moral choice? Are there arguments for and against it? These concepts which are threaded throughout Irreversible make it of wider significance than a masturbatory personal indie babble fest about a frustrated filmmaker who's girlfriend dumped him and now he has a porn addiction...
 
And if a bit of light-hearted sarcasm and the use of the word idiot is borderline offensive, then, well, I don't really know what to say. Man up, I suppose.
Er, no. What you say is "I'm sorry I'm coming on so strong and violating forum policies and basically calling people idiots. I didn't realize that this was a forum that demands respectful interaction between the members. Now that I know that, I'll stop it."

And if you can't stop it, then you're invited to use the door with the big "exit" sign over it.

Our rules are quite well established -- this isn't some rowdy free-for-all. This is a place for respectful exchange of ideas and information. When it heads towards personal attacks and profanity, that's when someone is no longer welcome to participate here. This place is to be treated like a living room, not a locker room.
 
Might as well go for the trifecta:

"Today I made a vinaigrette with olive oil, balsamic vinegar, white wine vinegar, mustard and a squeeze of grapefruit juice with not a care in world for the people who were going to use it to dress their salad. They loved it. I followed my instincts and my tastes and people enjoyed it. And don't you dare try and tell me my salad dressing analogy is not relevant, because you know damn well it is."

Your examples come off as sophomoric at best.

For starters you chose to make a vinaigrette. So, now you're filming in a well-trodden genre. Within this genre, what did you do? You used all extremely common salad dressing ingredients -- except perhaps for one: the grapefruit juice. Citrus is widely used: lemon, orange, etc. But you chose grapefruit, thus twisting the vinaigrette genre slightly. Others may have also gone this route before you; I don't know, I'm not a chef. But, let's assume you scored with this new take on the vinaigrette genre. Good for you. You apparently had an audience that appreciated it, though, which the rest of the filmmakers here seem to want also.

So are you arguing for reinventing the concept of salad dressing? Or are you tweaking well known genres slightly?
 
So are you arguing for reinventing the concept of salad dressing? Or are you tweaking well known genres slightly?

My good sir, I am not arguing either of these points. I am arguing about the process of making the film (salad dressing), not the outcome. If the outcome is deemed as a reinvention or a genre tweak then it's purely coincidental and unintentional.

I have fought my corner, and only retaliated when I felt my views had been mocked and belittled. If my behaviour has offended anyone personally, first of all I'm very surprised and second, of course, I am sorry.
 
One last thing. My name's William Hawthorne. I'm from a small town in England and I've never made a film before. I will make my first film next year and it will be titled 'Embers'.
See you at Cannes 2014.
 
One last thing. My name's William Hawthorne. I'm from a small town in England and I've never made a film before. I will make my first film next year and it will be titled 'Embers'.
See you at Cannes 2014.

How do you expect to garner the appreciation of others if you're entirely contemptuous of what they think? If you're making something intended solely for your own amusement, then do whatever you want. But I wouldn't expect anyone else to agree, as you obviously do by assuming you'll be accepted to Cannes with your first film.

If you make a film, I'd be quite interested in finding out what you then think about many of the things you've been saying over the past few weeks, because until you've done it, you can't possibly know about some of the things you've spoken on. Only experience can bring that.
 
Depends on who the "you" is though.

A producer is an artist of "the deal", packaging together a director, a cast, a script, and financiers, in order to create a perfect storm where everyone gets what they want, and (ideally) the audience gets a great experience -- although that is not necessarily the producer's prime goal.

A director (IMO) should be a visual storyteller, whose focus should be on making the very best film possible given the circumstances that they're handed (which may involve limited budget, or casting as required by the producer, etc). The director is the one who should (IMO) be most concerned with the audience's experience.

The cinematographer is an artist and a technician and an engineer. Someone who specifically uses tools to create art. And isn't necessarily concerned with the overall story being told, but is more concerned with making each frame tell the story of that particular scene.

The writer is purely a storyteller, and need not have any interest in the crafting, technicals, or engineering of a motion picture.

Which brings us to -- the "filmmaker". Don't even really know what that person is, in the traditional sense, but in today's world that term probably applies to the do-it-all-yourselfer who seems to be the majority of DVXUsers here. This is a person who isn't specifically a writer, or a cinematographer, or a director, but is someone who finances, writes, shoots, directs, and edits their own material. And that's a whole different breed. There aren't many (if any) of those folks anymore in "hollywood", this is primarily (IMO) the domain of today's DSLR/prosumer equipment user, who does much of the work themselves or with the borrowed assistance of friends, or has a micro budget and spends what they can on who they can. And it is this person who we are probably all talking about or around, who may or may not be that concerned with an audience's reaction, who may or may not even have had their script read by anyone else, who may or may not care whether the finished product is sellable or of appeal to anyone other than themselves. They don't (necessarily) have bosses they answer to, they frequently don't know (or care) how the system "works" or even to be a part of the system. They want to "make films", period. Not necessarily for an audience, or for wide distribution, or for financial gain, although they may certainly desire all of those. To me, this is a mindset and mentality very different from, say, the cinematographer who eats, breathes, and sleeps American Cinematographer and watching the works of Kovacs or Hall, who actively hires himself out on other people's jobs for a good living, who makes it his job to know the equipment and the lights and the framing and staging and movement and dynamics of a scene etc. To me, the "filmmaker" is more likely to be a beginner, a hobbyist, or a dilettante. Most established folks that I know of, who make a living in the industry or who intend to, focus on one of the professions and call themselves that -- "producer", "director", "cinematographer", "writer". But sometimes you get somebody like George Lucas, who has the wherewithal and the experience, who has the money and the connections, who can do absolutely everything his own way, and who doesn't necessarily even care what the audience thinks of what they've done, and someone like that would certainly be entitled to choose the title "filmmaker" if they so chose.

So before we all go telling each other that "you're thinking the wrong way", it would be nice to recognize that not everyone shares the same goals.

I'm referring to filmmaking writ large, of course. The point is (as you know) that everything technical serves the art, not the other way around. The art is the first worry; how to do it is the technical part.
 
Davey Jimbo you are the most serious man in the world. Of course I don't expect to be accepted by Cannes. But there's no harm in aiming for it!
 
Depends on who the "you" is though.

A producer is an artist of "the deal", packaging together a director, a cast, a script, and financiers, in order to create a perfect storm where everyone gets what they want, and (ideally) the audience gets a great experience -- although that is not necessarily the producer's prime goal.

A director (IMO) should be a visual storyteller, whose focus should be on making the very best film possible given the circumstances that they're handed (which may involve limited budget, or casting as required by the producer, etc). The director is the one who should (IMO) be most concerned with the audience's experience.

The cinematographer is an artist and a technician and an engineer. Someone who specifically uses tools to create art. And isn't necessarily concerned with the overall story being told, but is more concerned with making each frame tell the story of that particular scene.

The writer is purely a storyteller, and need not have any interest in the crafting, technicals, or engineering of a motion picture.
Disagree to agree here.
A cinematographer does tell stories in the same manner that Michelangelo or Picasso or Norman Rockwell did...but instead with the medium of light instead of oils, clays or marble.
The writer, as you said, is simply following in the storytelling footsteps of a couple a' three millennia worth of forbearers.
The director is really the "groundbreaking" (aka "new") position that has come along with the advent of Cinemalicism...but a new breed of storyteller all the same.
Finally, couldn't the producer be seen as he who "commissioned" the work itself (ala Pope Sixtus IV & the Sistine Chapel), thus arranging for that particular story to be told in that particular way?? Granted, with other motivator$ involved...


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In other words...
Basically, what David said.
The idea that EVERYONE involved should remember that they are storytellers first, and second, and third. And the other elements take a distant fourth, fifth and so on...
 
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PS-

David, I chose the "storytelling" over the "art" angle simply to avoid leaving the ol' artist vs. artisan debate out of the equation.

And Kholi, :sigh: if only
Want to tell stories (only)? Write books... =P
wasn't the prevailing headwind of attitudes.
 
Woody Allen has said some interesting things in recent years about drama vs comedy. I think the debate between them can be compared to art vs entertainment. He says it's the dramas that ask hard questions and leave the viewer pondering life, existence, etc. And usually these sorts of films are considered objectively better by critics and such. However, the questions that come from good drama are usually unanswerable, and for that reason, perhaps it's the comedies that should be considered "better," because they've given the viewer real joy for a few hours. He makes an analogy that goes something like-- "What's better, pondering the meaning of life, or getting caught up in the score of the Knicks game?" As the differing opinions in this thread suggest, it's up to each to decide for himself. FWIW, I personally think Woody's best films are the ones that blend comedy and drama.


Back to the original post. I heard great advice from Howard Suber-- a film professors from UCLA, who has taught thousands of students over the decades-- when asked what the most important thing is to become a truly great filmmaker. He tells a long story about how it took him a very long time to settle on a particular trait, but then settled on this: the ability to cope with despair. I think this idea goes much deeper than the notion of persistence. I feel that this "dealing with despair" involves storytelling from the "shadow" (Jung) instead of the ego or persona. I think there's a gap between our socialized idea of what is acceptable to share and the truthfulness required in real self expression. And to transcend this gap, you need to go through a certain sort of despair.
 
1. You


2. Are


3. Storytellers


4. Not


5. Technicians

I'd argue the opposite in many cases. I think a large number of people on these forums are just that, technicians rather than storytellers - and in a business as silly as ours, and where technical know-how is so vital to the storytelling process, I think a lot of us lose sight of just what our actual strengths are, which is often the technical side of creative production, the 'how-to', rather than the ability to convey character and emotion through a series of sequential images.

When it comes to storytelling, the key is always going to lie with the words on the page. They shape and define every subsequent action that occurs to bring them to the screen. Yet sadly, most of us don't treat them with the reverence we should - and I'd argue that lies mostly with our failings as storytellers.

The script is the story, and if it isn't funny, or emotional, or thrilling, or sad, or rewarding in it's entirety - then you're never going to have a good film.

So my advice that I think every newb filmmaker should know - is GET A GOOD SCRIPT TOGETHER. If it isn't great, revise it. If it still isn't great after that, revise it again, and if that still fails, consider getting someone else to write it. Never settle until you have a story that's actually worth telling. That's actually worth the time and cost, and emotion and challenge that any film production (whether good or bad) is subject to.
 
This board is a mixed bag for sure. I'm a writer and a director. I'm sometimes also a DP (come from a fairly strong stills background, so not starting at zero) just because budgets don't always allow me to hire one and I'm decent. When I have budget I use a real DP.
 
I’ve seen:
talented guys going for art and not making money
talented guys going for art and making money
talented guys going for money films and not making money
talented guys going for money films and making money
untalented guys going for art and making money
untalented guys going for art and not making money
untalented guys going for money films and making money
untalented guys going for money films and not making money

...and if i’ve forgotten anything - any other permutations.

Bottom line - there is no rules.
Anybody who tells you that film or anything else has to be this or that in large part if wrong. That in itself will not stop me to make educated guesses but i have to remember that it will be just that a guess with a tint of education.

And that’s why its so HUGELY important to do what feels right to YOU.

Truth is that there is a very specific reason why people like to name rules and then follow those as this allows them to find themselves more easily in this world or even feel superior for knowing something that others might not. But that feeling of superiority is a trap. The rules make our work more stale and ultimately less enjoyable to others. It’s only when we reach a point where every rule is important but no rule really is that we can start talking about making films of heart and quality.
 
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