What do I do about this audio mixing problem with the audio engineer?

[ullanta]

6. One more thing... a big picture thing... ironpony, you need to develop self-confidence, and convey that to people you work with. Look at all your posts where you continuously say "I've heard" or "I've read here" or "this guy who says he's an expert told me" or "this guy with this certification told me". This sends a message that you are weak, easily influenceable, and unable to think for yourself. I am not saying that you are, just that that is how you make yourself appear.

 

[ironpony]

Well I don't want to make mistakes I can't undo so I guess that's why I am adamant about following the rules that poeple who have told me. And a lot of times filmmakers dig themselves into holes, from doing things their own way. People I have helped shot movies, would neglect things they are not suppose to, just to make it easier, then it comes back to bite them later. So it seems the more rules you follow, the better. But I just want to do what's professional, I don't mean to come off as a micromanager or anything.

Well I got all the files put into an OMF container, ready to go. But they are not edited. All the audio takes are now uncut. I thought that OMFs are suppose to be the cuts of the audio that are in the movie, not the whole uncut original files. That will be a lot for the audio engineer to have to go through. Is there any way I can just give him the cuts I want?

 

[keylight]

Well I don't want to make mistakes I can't undo so I guess that's why I am adamant about following the rules that poeple who have told me. And a lot of times filmmakers dig themselves into holes, from doing things their own way. People I have helped shot movies, would neglect things they are not suppose to, just to make it easier, then it comes back to bite them later. So it seems the more rules you follow, the better. But I just want to do what's professional, I don't mean to come off as a micromanager or anything.

Well I got all the files put into an OMF container, ready to go. But they are not edited. All the audio takes are now uncut. I thought that OMFs are suppose to be the cuts of the audio that are in the movie, not the whole uncut original files. That will be a lot for the audio engineer to have to go through. Is there any way I can just give him the cuts I want?

I'd like to encourage you to make a real commitment to learn this stuff.

Not knowing how to turn down an audio level in Premiere (the question you just posted in another thread - see below) is a good sign that you need some real, in-depth training. Not the kind you can get in a forum like this, and not the kind you can get from online tutorials. I'm suggesting in person training, the kind where you walk into a classroom, sit down, and listen, do, ask questions, get answers, and learn. The kind that you have to pay to take. It won't be cheap, it won't be easy. But it'll really help.

For those wondering what I'm talking about RE: turning down an audio level, this was his question in a new thread:

I started editing a project and for some reason all of track 2 is way too loud. The actor's voice is constantly peaking. Now in the original audios he does peak at all and the files are fine. I double checked on two systems to be sure. So the originalf files are fine, but track 2 is turned up way too loud, and I want all the tracks at just a normal, good volume. How do I turn it down? Thanks.

Who knows.... Maybe he's just having a laugh.

 

[paulears]

I've been doing this stuff for over 30 years now - doesn't seem that long, and I have lost count of the number of absolute rules that change as techniques and technology move on. I've learned to treat ever rule as a guideline, once I really understand what is going on. I consider an absolute rule as a problem to challenge. When I was a teacher, we told students 'rules' that would prevent the average student messing up. The advanced ones would consider the 'rule', research the reasons for the 'rule', and then formulate their own opinion on how valid it was. So the beginner was told that the auto settings for audio level and focus were a rule - as was the notion of never zooming while recording. The reason being that following the rule would generate usable video that could be edited - NOT good video. As they progress, they start to make decisions on how manual settings work better. Same with lighting for video. Everyone follows the key, fill, backlight rule.... until they can start to analyse the results and find better solutions. Back in the 70s, we were following a rule to not be afraid to push levels into the red, now the rule is NEVER go into the red. I'm the rebel on the 'never use shotguns indoors' rule - I do it all the time, BUT I do appreciate why the notion is touted as a rule to beginners, because it is so easy to get wrong and end up with dreadful sound - the 'rule' helps people who don't know better. It gets promoted as an absolute, but it really isn't.

A newcomer attempting to create their own collection of rules for every situation, without actually DOING it for real, has no way of quantifying the effect of the rules.

In the music area, people with protools have been chucking stems at each other for years, swapping files across between protools systems with pretty good results, but now we have people working on a wide variety of workstations running different, but similar software, you cannot guarantee that Cubase will treat the Protools or Adobe or logic file in the same way. Different sample rates, file formats, and even image files can do very odd things - especially when the programme converts things without you being aware with it. Simple things like fader positions - I don't know why, but nudging a fader in Cubase produces a change in level at my ears - but doing the same thing on say, Premiere on the same PC makes a different change in level for the same screen movement. Not much, but I find Cubase sounds more like what happens on a real fader than Premiere (and Audition). Very often the base level seems wrong too - a level on the ears and meters in one, seems over loud or quiet on the other - yet it should be the same, it just isn't. In my audio studio, I can take a file in practically any format and work on it. I don't really care what it is. A mac file will be one type, a pc another. In many cases even mp3s at high bitrate sound fine too. If we're looking (or listening) at the kinds of actual differences there are between these file types, then we're probably assuming that the actual recoding techniques matched them - in many cases, they won't. If we are looking at the difference between say 44.1, 44 and 96K sampling - it would also be matched by the recording crew making very small changes to mic placement and even swapping mics to get 'the best' capture. If the recording people were waving booms around, the changes this makes to the sound overshadow, or sometimes make obvious the errors!

Rules should be guidelines. Guidelines are invitations to experiment - once you're up to speed!

I was trying, after writing this to think of some good absolute rules - but the only ones I can think of are very obvious, and don't need a rule. Like .... Never go over digital 0. This one has to be a proper rule, because there's no way doing it ever sounds good - but if you do do it - a red light comes on. What other absolute rules do we have?

In theatre lighting, which was my main area of work for a while when I started out, all the rules invented by the greats dictated 45 degrees from centre each side were the best angles for lighting a stage. Nobody ever told theatre designers of course, and very few venues could actually do it! This rule was absolute for many years - yet very rarely achieved. The BBC recorded almost everything with a fig. 8 pattern microphone, so this became a kind of rule - but the truth was that the most pleasant sounding microphone happened to be a ribbon, with fig. 8 as it's natural pattern. When mics were available with alternate patterns that sounded good, people started to use them. The 'rule' was quietly forgotten. BBC local radio in the UK used Beyer hyper-cardioids (M201s) for almost everything, because they always performed well in a variety of settings - so for them, it became the mic of choice. In the US, it never got a look in because there were just as good home-grown mics. All these things are really just trends, not proper rules.

When you know nothing - you grasp for these rules, but so many are influenced by history, not solid fact.

 

[Noiz2]

An OMF is the cut audio, or actually the audio takes plus an edl that will bring in the clips with the edits in the receiving program.

I'm guessing your comment was based on your seeing full files. That brings up the question though. OMF's come in a couple of flavors and rPoTools I believe only imports the encapsulated flavor so if you have a folder of files you have the non encapsulated version and your sound person may not be able to use it.

This brings up a point that probably is the root answer to the entire thread.

Filmmaking is a TEAM sport. Don't ask us ask your team!

You and your sound person don't seem to be talking much????? I have worked on projects where I have never met the director, but we talked a lot.

Your sound person is the one who needs to tell you what HE needs. Even it top profesional studios and mix stages what they need is not completely consistant. YOU need to ask every time.

There is a big difference between skipping things to save some money that people who know better tell you will be a problem and making up "rules".

I understand you want to not screw yourself by doing it "wrong", but the number one way to keep from doing that is to TALK to your people.

You are so inexperienced in this field that I'm not at all confident that you understood what the editor was telling you.

I doubt he is a lazy incompetent weenie, but he could be.

But STOP asking others what you editor needs and start asking him. I had someone render a film in an uncompressed format and hand it to me once so "I could see it in the best quality". I'm not going to use a 150 gig video file, it will crush the system just to play. The had to re-render it, they didn't ask. Actually they didn't read since I had sent detailed directions for what I needed.

 

[keylight]

^ Another great post.

But I suspect we are all wasting our time. At this point - especially after his "how do I change the audio level in Premiere?" question, I've come to the conclusion that ironpony is either

trolling the forums

OR

A pony

Since I've never seen a pony that could type, my money is on trolling. Either way, a waste of time. What do other people think?

 

[Noiz2]

I think he is just very new to filmmaking. Also if I remember correctly (and I may not) I believe he is very young. You remember back when you thought it was going to be easy to "figure it out" and rule the earth.

 

[keylight]

I think he is just very new to filmmaking. Also if I remember correctly (and I may not) I believe he is very young. You remember back when you thought it was going to be easy to "figure it out" and rule the earth.

Perhaps, but if you read earlier in the thread, unclebob indicates that ironpony has been working for a couple of years on this project and has posted thousands of messages on another site, with lots and lots of problems. If this is true, 2 years is plenty of time to learn the basics.

I started many years ago, back when I was in my 2nd year of high school. I remember those days of learning. I remember taking classes, reading, practicing, tinkering, and asking lots questions. Difference is I listened and learned from the answers people gave me. I don't think I've read a single wrong answer or piece of advice in this thread, and yet ironpony doesn't seem to be making any progress.

Honestly, I think he is being deliberately obtuse.

Edit: To clarify, I was 14 years old and it was the middle of winter and I took an 8 week class at my local community access on studio production. I traveled 45 minutes on a bus (actually, I think I had to change buses in the middle) twice a week after school to get to that class. Then another hour to get home. Following summer I took a class at a local college on field and post production. The class met a couple times a week for 6 weeks, but I went in EVERY DAY to check out equipment, shoot, edit.... I worked with other people (a few years my senior - I was still in H.S. of course) and learned. In the evenings I booked time on the very cool new Fairlight CVI they had just purchased.

In other words, I did what most people on these forums did. I got out there and learned. I read, practiced, interacted with people, asked questions, worked on my stuff, worked on other people's stuff..... And I never complained or assigned blame to others for my own failures. I learned from my mistakes, sometimes repeating them once or twice until things sunk in.

 

[ryanjf]

I'm guessing your comment was based on your seeing full files. That brings up the question though. OMF's come in a couple of flavors and rPoTools I believe only imports the encapsulated flavor so if you have a folder of files you have the non encapsulated version and your sound person may not be able to use it.

PT imports both encapsulated (embedded) as well as non-encapsulated (referenced) OMFs/AAFs. I personally think it's much more dangerous to work with embedded OMFs/AAFs for certain workflows.

 

[Doc Bernard]

Keylight, Paulears, Noiz2:


Excellent posts!

 

[ironpony]

Okay thanks. I would very much like to to take a class but I would have to move to a city, that teaches editing, and all the little things that come with the programs and all. I might be able to take a class next year, depending. I also put everything into an OMF contaimer and I think I figured out why the audio engineer said the OMF container was blank. There are a lot of files in the container. About 2% are the files from the movie. The other 98% are just blank space. Why is that? I'll tell the engineer that I'm sorry but he'll just have to search throughout to find that 2%, and give him a new container.

 

[Rick R]

The OMF format inherently has a 2GB file size limitation, so it's often necessary to export a 'long' project in time or scene segments, or track groups to reduce the file size. If the file 'handles' are set excessively long, that can add to the file size, as can having dual-mono files which are unnecessary and eat up MBs. Some apps allow for non-embedding the audio files. (but not FCP, AFAIK)

 

[ironpony]

Okay thanks. I've also noticed that some of the files are being cut off. Like someone will say come here, but all you here is come, and that's it. Is that because the files may be too big?

 

[davefisk]

Couple of things I've learned over the years:

-Never assume anything about someone you are working with if you have never been to their facility and seen what is going on. I've seen big time assumptions made on the part of production about post and I went to post to help solve problems, and the assumptions made by production were all wrong and mis-informed. By that point people's jobs had been threatened, all because of bad assumptions. This goes back to my product specialist days when I was helping to coordinate production and post workflows...this is on big budget union features and tv shows in hollywood.

-Good, Fast, Cheap. Pick two.

-Don't judge a dialogue track until you've heard the final edit and mix. You'd be surprised at what experienced people can do.

-You need to get your workflow set up before any files are exchanged.

-you don't have to have music to start editing dialogue.

 

[keylight]

EDIT: This will be my last comment on anything from ironpony. Going to ignore. Good luck to everyone!

Okay thanks. I've also noticed that some of the files are being cut off. Like someone will say come here, but all you here is come, and that's it. Is that because the files may be too big?

Always another question that can't really be answered by anyone here. ironpony is the only person who can answer this question because he is the only one who can look at the size of his files.

He is baiting you..... Look at his other threads. Same thing over and over again. http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/search.php?searchid=2792656

So.... Public Service Reminder....

ironpony is trolling




Trolling

The art of deliberately, cleverly, and secretly pissing people off, usually via the internet, using dialogue. Trolling does not mean just making rude remarks: Shouting swear words at someone doesn't count as trolling; it's just flaming, and isn't funny. Spam isn't trolling either; it pisses people off, but it's lame.

The most essential part of trolling is convincing your victim that either a) truly believe in what you are saying, no matter how outrageous, or b) give your victim malicious instructions, under the guise of help.
Trolling requires decieving; any trolling that doesn't involve decieving someone isn't trolling at all; it's just stupid. As such, your victim must not know that you are trolling; if he does, you are an unsuccesful troll.

Signs that your trolling is succesful:
*Your victim screaming in all-caps at you.
*Personal attacks (Calling you a retard, idiot, etc).
*Being an Internet Tough Guy.
*Making a crude remark, before quickly logging off before you can retort.

Signs that your trolling is unsuccesful:
*Your victim identifying you as a troll.
*Identifying yourself as a troll.
*Your efforts being ignored.
*Being counter-trolled

 

[Doc Bernard]

Sure hope not, Keylight. It's too easy to ID someone on a forum through IP addy's. And really easy to destroy a rep if he is actually in film and trolling the users here.

Like I said, I sure hope not.

 

[keylight]

Sure hope not, Keylight. It's too easy to ID someone on a forum through IP addy's. And really easy to destroy a rep if he is actually in film and trolling the users here.

Like I said, I sure hope not.

Agreed. Wish a Mod would look into the IP address to see if he's posting under other names.

BTW, you're an incredibly patient guy. Reading through the thread on the thumping from his mic was quite painful.....

He started with this:

I keep trying to figure out what the problem is but cannot. Almost every time I try to record a percussive sound, my mic produces unnatural thumping sounds, that when amplified afterwards, are hard on the ears. [SNIP] Any idea what it could be that I am doing wrong? Thanks.

A question posted without an audio sample of course, which he only was able to provide after a lot of back and forth (with you in fact... such amazing patience!)

So, 43 posts later and he ends with....

.... The audio engineer says he could clean it up no problem, but I guess that's what they are paid for. I still want to make their jobs easy. I put in the sounds even though their maybe some wind thumping or whatever you want to call it, but I will get that 10db pad next time or something.

If the audio engineer exists (doubtful now), then I feel really sorry for him/her. Oh, and that last sentence is actually very trollish. Reads like more bait, just begging for someone to tell him not to do that, or to get a pad cable now. I'll tell you this much, if he isn't a troll, he's in the wrong profession because he's got a real talent for it.