What do I do about this audio mixing problem with the audio engineer?

Sorry for my lack of knowledge but what is the predub in this case? I looked it up but it has different definitions.
 
I haven't heard it yet, that's just what he told me he did by email. I was told before on here though that if multiple voices are on the same track, at similar voices, speaking at the same time, that you cannot pull them apart and expect them to sound good after. I was told by more than one person, CANNOT pull them apart. So if it's a cannot and that's true, I can't expect to sound good.
 
ironpony said:
I haven't heard it yet, that's just what he told me he did by email. I was told before on here though that if multiple voices are on the same track, at similar voices, speaking at the same time, that you cannot pull them apart and expect them to sound good after. I was told by more than one person, CANNOT pull them apart. So if it's a cannot and that's true, I can't expect to sound good.
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Give it a listen when he's all done, evaluate it, and go from there. And perhaps compare it to another dialogue track from a feature film?
 
Well I am meeting up with him next week. He just sent an email saying he can restart on the individual tracks. Since I gave him a copy of the movie for reference, I don't remember what codec and format I set the tracks too. I think it might have been 24bit ant 48 hkz but cannot be certain. He said he can start on the individual tracks though if I want at this point, and we can just wait make another date when he is finished. The individual tracks I gave him are at 24 bit/96 khz at the 128 bitrate. Is this good, or should I give him the tracks at another codec. He says if so, that would be okay.
 
ironpony said:
Well I am meeting up with him next week. He just sent an email saying he can restart on the individual tracks. Since I gave him a copy of the movie for reference, I don't remember what codec and format I set the tracks too. I think it might have been 24bit ant 48 hkz but cannot be certain. He said he can start on the individual tracks though if I want at this point, and we can just wait make another date when he is finished. The individual tracks I gave him are at 24 bit/96 khz at the 128 bitrate. Is this good, or should I give him the tracks at another codec. He says if so, that would be okay.
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I've been watching this thread for a bit, and everyone's given you some really good information. I'm not very knowledgeable on the technical aspects of sound post work (never really needed to be) but I do feel the urge to step in on a slightly different issue.... managing your relationship with the person who is doing your audio work.

Before he does any more work on your project, I'd ask him to send you a section of the work he's already done from a scene that you pick. Choose one that's fairly tough and ask for the finished audio so you can hear how it sounds. Since he likes to do everything via email, it shouldn't really be a problem for him to send you a few minutes of the finished work.

I've already said this, but ask for the sample before he does any more work. You should have already done this a couple of times. It's a great way to keep on top of the project and the person working on it. When you listen to the sample, if he has taken shortcuts you should be able to hear it. If it sounds bad, I'd stop all work until you can meet with him to review everything and discuss problems and solutions.

Having him restart work (using the individual tracks) before you've heard what he's already done, could open yourself up to trouble. I wouldn't be surprised to hear later that he wants to be compensated for the work that he has "already finished but had to throw away" because "you asked" him to "start over". Your situation could be ripe for this kind of dispute, so tread lightly and review, review, review.

If the work he's done sounds good, why have him restart? So check the work first, and then check it often.
 
ironpony said:
The individual tracks I gave him are at 24 bit/96 khz at the 128 bitrate. Is this good, or should I give him the tracks at another codec. He says if so, that would be okay.
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I'm a bit confused with this statement. 128 bitrate implies an audio format that is not WAV/AIFF. Like the others have said in this email, you should've provided him with an OMF/AAF with 48kHz audio @ 24bit (or 16 bit - whatever was recorded during production). Or did you record production at 96kHz?? I'd request a rough edit from him just to hear it. When I work with directors, I always make sure to send them rough edits, dialogue tracks, etc. just so they know that I'm actually "working" on their stuff. It keeps them up-to-date and it shows dedication. As mentioned, just evaluate his edit/mix and if you're finding that roomtone isn't matching, then you'll have to send him AAF/OMFs because he doesn't have access to the "handles" with your independent dialogue tracks you sent him. The "handles" are useful in blending and smoothing out tracks.
 
When I do a final mix I usually import a single mono track for dialog.
I wouldn't try to do a final mix down in a NLE.
Is that the issue you are having?
 
I am not doing the final mix in NLE, I am just exporting single tracks from the NLE. I use Premier Pro. When I try do AAF or OMF though, it says the exportation, or whatever you would call the process, could not be completed that way. It won't tell me why, it just says it won't. I will ask him for a peace in the meantime. But I want to hopefully get it done by next week or asap, before he starts charging me more or whatever. So I should stick to what I know for now, and learn this AAF stuff later I think. Right now I just want to give him the tracks exported as media, out of Premiere since that seems to be working. The quicker I give it to him, the less of a chance he will charge me more I figure. So what do I give him as media? 24 bit/96 khz at 128, or something else? Thanks.
 
When I try do AAF or OMF though, it says the exportation, or whatever you would call the process, could not be completed that way. It won't tell me why, it just says it won't.
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Hmmmm. OMF's and AAF's are the standard, if Premeire is having issues (I don't use premiere), you may want to look into getting a program that does accept them, or let him do the work, create the omf as he needs, a/b it against the footage and original/scratch sound, then just send you the wav/aiff-c file. Without being able to accept OMF's and AAF's, you are limited in your choices.
 
Well I know I am but I want to get the sound done before I have to pay for more. I realize I am, but the movie is long overdue already and I just want to get it done.
 
ironpony, it sounds like his ability to edit sound outweighs your edit rig's ability. Tell him to do a mix down to stereo, or surround (if that is your flavor), and send you what he has. Yep, its going to take longer, and he will be relying on you to notate corrections using timecode as a reference. But without a rig to import those file formats, you are pretty much stuck. You can make it a bit easier by asking for a channel group, but the file is a lot larger.
 
Another way to do it is transfer the 2pop onto all tracks, then send each one individually and recompile them on your end. But this is really tedious on both ends. And basically says you don't trust his ability to mix the sound right.
 
ironpony said:
I am not doing the final mix in NLE, I am just exporting single tracks from the NLE. I use Premier Pro. When I try do AAF or OMF though, it says the exportation, or whatever you would call the process, could not be completed that way.
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When I have these sorts of problems with Premiere, I usually go to the Adobe Forum and ask 'why is this not working?'. In many cases the problems are procedural, and having gotten the correct procedure, 'things work'.

I've only done a few experiments with OMF/AAF from Premiere, in June. But I didn't have a DAW that understood OMF/AAF at the time to check if the output was garbage or not.

Since I've gotten CS6 and Audition... I've not had time to try the experiment again.

The one thing that I have found with outputting OMF was that the process did not seem to work on 'nested' sequences. Again I've not revisited this since June, so I could have done something wrong at the time. I don't know how you work in Premiere but if your work involves nested sequences perhaps that's a place to look into.


Here's a Phillip Bloom 'note that' on the topic of Premiere and OMF, which also lists another couple of 'do's and don'ts' on Premiere and OMF. (The discussion also notes that 'nested' sequences cause Premiere heartburn...).
 
Did you send him all the original production audio? With that in combination with individual tracks you sent him, he should be able to edit a bit easier... He can find alt takes, patches of room tone, and even resync some audio, which is tedious. What sample rate and bit depth did you use during production? In the past, AAF/OMFs from Premiere have been nothing but trouble for the projects I've worked on.
 
Wow a lot of posts...

To answer an earlier post the DAW is relevant in that some are not going to be able to work some workflows.

Related to that:

If your sound editor, and I would stop calling him a technician - it pisses editors off to be referred to as technicians, does not have certain other software he can't import an OMF in to Pro Tools. So OMF is the right way to go depending on who this guy is and what he/ she normally does they may not want an OMF.

This is why you need to have a sit down workflow talk with your sound post people before you send them stuff.

You are hiring them to deliver to you a finished track that sounds good, how they get there is not really your problem. if you started micro managing that dentist you would be out the door and working on your own teeth with a dremel tool. I suspect that this person is not very experienced or they never would have told you they used your mixed track. An experienced editor probably also would not have used the mixed track but you never know?

You also seem to have some very misguided concepts of exactly what sound post can accomplish.

I'm not laying that all on you because it's part of the editors job to talk to you about this stuff if he thinks you are new to the process.

It sounds like you did deliver what he asked for so I don't think you need to give him more. Unless your OMF problem is what stopped you from giving him an OMF.

And related to that problem, it may well have to do with your sound files. Why on earth do you have dialog at 196/24 ?????

Not only is that crazy but you may well not be able to put that in an OMF. OMF may well be limited to 48 and below, it's an old format. But even so OMF is normally created in a single file and that file can not exceed 2 gigs. So unless you film is VERY short you would probably have to do it in multiple OMFs.

And not all DAW's can play 196k files. The very first thing I would do if you handed me a bunch of 196k files is batch convert them to 48k/24.

He is not going to hand you back a track that sounds like a Hollywood film. He is not going to be able to make all of your different takes with different perspectives and room reverbs etc sound like they were all shot in the same place. At least not with out doing a full post and it sounds like you are only hiring him to edit/ "fix" the production dialog and mix in some music. With out doing the Foley and FX to fil it out it's going to have that empty "indi" sound and with out doing full backgrounds he will have no place to hide the diferences in the takes. You can slather it in music but then you get the second version of "indi" sound and it still doesn't sound good.

I'm going to make an assumption here and that is you are not paying much for this. "Much" is a relative term but a full post takes around 10-15 man hours per screen minute. If your good and have a big library you can maybe trim that down to 7 hours/ min. A "profesional" editor makes $30 - $50 an hour on a "profesional" show. Now that is full budget features and ad's. Low budget films are done mostly at a small percentage of that rate, but my point is you are probably not paying much for his time, and what you handed him will take a lot of time to get anywhere close to what you want. So I don't think he is "ripping you off".

BUT if your asking us if we think he's ripping you off then you already do think that. Before you go on with this you should sit down and talk this out with your editor because if you are not on the same team it's going to be an ugly experience for both of you. Much better that you shake hands and part ways than stay in a toxic relationship. An edit is a multi stage process. He needs to be sending you stuff and you need to be giving him notes. Few editors want to work with a director over their shoulder, plus it's really boring for the director. BUT you should be there for the mix and you should be in to see/ hear what's going on before the mix so you can give notes and get corrections. It takes a lot of back and forth before an editor really understands what a director is thinking. You may well want something that is not possible. But you may also hesitate to ask for something you think is imposible. I want a director to ask for the moon, but understand when I explain why some of those requests are not possible.
 
ryanjf said:
Did you send him all the original production audio? With that in combination with individual tracks you sent him, he should be able to edit a bit easier... He can find alt takes, patches of room tone, and even resync some audio, which is tedious. What sample rate and bit depth did you use during production? In the past, AAF/OMFs from Premiere have been nothing but trouble for the projects I've worked on.
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I have actually had good luck with Premiere imports but YMMV. While it's nice to have all the production it's also very rare that a low budget film has the budget to pay for me to swap out takes. They almost never have the paperwork and database set up for you to even find the original files. I'll go digging as a last resort but I pretty much never reassemble a show from the original recordings.
 
ryanjf said:
Did you send him all the original production audio? With that in combination with individual tracks you sent him, he should be able to edit a bit easier... He can find alt takes, patches of room tone, and even resync some audio, which is tedious. What sample rate and bit depth did you use during production? In the past, AAF/OMFs from Premiere have been nothing but trouble for the projects I've worked on.[/QUOTE

No I did not send him the originals, just audio after it has been exported from Premiere so it's all cut to the timeline of the movie. I don't want him to use alternate takes, as I have already chosen the best takes for the acting. And if OMF is only limited to 48 khz, I don't know what it would list higher khzs as an option. I am paying $1200 for it. I don't expect the Hollywood style quality at all, but I expect a pro, who graduated from an audio engineering school, to follow the rules, and trying to pull three voices apart and give them all separate reverbs, is amateur when you have separate tracks of higher export quality to work with, according to what I was told on here, and by others in the business.
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Pardon my French, but this project sounds like a real cluster-F.

It started with you not knowing the basics, and has worked into a miscommunication fest with you getting angry with the post audio workflow.

Why not stop all post work, communicate with your post person, and start fresh with the proper workflow from start to finish?
 
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