What camera solution + workflow for school recording?

NorBro said:
P.S. I said G60 above, but I meant the XA50 (which is pretty much the same camera but it has the XLR handle you'd need).

Originally it sounded like you also wanted to improve your IQ a bit as well, but IMO you're just not going to do that with many camcorder options.

People in your situation also consider cameras like the C100 (I or II) and FS5 (I or II).
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Thanks for this...we have the XA10...but just found the quality of image a fair way off the DSLR quality of the 80D's..but maybe they've improved that on the XA50...It is intersting how audio interfaces always seem such an overlooked feature by manufacturers compared to so much focus on every last pixel of video quality...I can see in the pro world...people just go dual audio...but there seems a real market for an all in one camera with both...

I know very little about the Blackmagic cameras...would something like this do the job?

https://www.storedj.com.au/blackmagi...QaApAgEALw_wcB
 
Camcorders have barely improved...they are better than what they were 5 years ago, but nothing compared to the advancement of mirrorless'.

For audio (and for post projects), a lot of people moved over to 32-bit float and that's truly settable and forgettable since there is no clipping and you adjust everything in post (if you haven't heard of it, yes, it is as amazing as it sounds and one of the great creations in the industry).

Doesn't matter which camera, just plop it on top of the recorder and off you go (but likely wouldn't work for your live purpose).

The new 4K Studio Pro would work but there's no internal recording, so you'd have to make sure you dial in your external solution well.

Its quality would be better than any fixed-lens camcorder on the market.
 
NorBro said:
Camcorders have barely improved...they are better than what they were 5 years ago, but nothing compared to the advancement of mirrorless'.

For audio (and for post projects), a lot of people moved over to 32-bit float and that's truly settable and forgettable since there is no clipping and you adjust everything in post (if you haven't heard of it, yes, it is as amazing as it sounds and one of the great creations in the industry).

Doesn't matter which camera, just plop it on top of the recorder and off you go (but likely wouldn't work for your live purpose).

The new 4K Studio Pro would work but there's no internal recording, so you'd have to make sure you dial in your external solution well.

Its quality would be better than any fixed-lens camcorder on the market.
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Thanks for this,...it looks like the Blackmagic works with a USB C harddrive...be we probably still need something dual purpose...ie. that you could take out and about too...

What about a Panasonic GH5 with the Panasonic DMW-XLR1E XLR Adaptor?

Apparently there is no time limit on the recording part of this like on our Canon DSLRs?

I imagine the image quality is better than the XA50 Camcorder? Thanks!
 
If you have older computers it might be an issue, but there are adapters for moving around...

Although the camera would record Blackmagic RAW...you know that, right?

___

If you're now getting into mirorrless' then you have about 50 choices compared to like 5 for camcorders - so, yeah, a GH5 could work and many more, and the quality would be much better than the XA50. (Sonys have XLR adapters as well.)

There are no time constraints in a handful of options, but many still do have 30-minute limits.
 
I think I’m biased to be honest here. Pretty well 90% of my video work is in the studio, in theatres or at events, and DSLR format cameras have so many disadvantages for me, unless you fit them with so many accessories that they’re not really DSLRs any more. I know loads of people love them, but they just don’t work for me. I like TV type lenses, where focus and zoom work properly and there is proper socketry for whatever you need to do.
 
paulears said:
I think I’m biased to be honest here. Pretty well 90% of my video work is in the studio, in theatres or at events, and DSLR format cameras have so many disadvantages for me, unless you fit them with so many accessories that they’re not really DSLRs any more. I know loads of people love them, but they just don’t work for me. I like TV type lenses, where focus and zoom work properly and there is proper socketry for whatever you need to do.
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Thanks Paul and NorBro...I think at the end of the day our school just needs to find a camera solution that can accept an XLR microphone...with a minimum of complexity..and can record for 60 minutes without turning off...we are already invested in the Canon EOS lens family...so it would make sense to get something compatible with that if we went interchangeable....but then it could just be standalone...the XA50 could be an option...all I know is today when I looked at the footage from our XA10 today it wasn't great at all...not very nice colours...my Pixel Smartphone is much better quality! That Blackmagic Raw sounds like it could be a problem then...we probably just need an edit friendly file format...thanks!
 
The XA10 is ancient. It is so old as a camera that it's like a horse and buggy compared to other methods of traveling.

Being HD is not the problem; it's the way they made cameras back then; old sensor, no super-sampling, worse processing, low data rates, terrible in low-light, fixed glass was mediocre.

When you say your smartphone is much better it probably is!

You'll have to compromise because you won't be able to have it all unless more money is spent.

P.S. How many microphones are normally used and how?
 
NorBro said:
The XA10 is ancient. It is so old as a camera that it's like a horse and buggy compared to other methods of traveling.

Being HD is not the problem; it's the way they made cameras back then; old sensor, no super-sampling, worse processing, low data rates, terrible in low-light, fixed glass was mediocre.

When you say your smartphone is much better it probably is!

You'll have to compromise because you won't be able to have it all unless more money is spent.

P.S. How many microphones are normally used and how?
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Thanks...that no doubt explains it! Watched a video on the XA50...certainly has all the convenience features...there is also an XA40...and a Sony:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...camcorder.html

Typically with mics we actually only need one...it is used for interviews often..run and gun style..kids just pointing and shooting..interviewing each other..

...but then two inputs in the concert/chapels context could be handy...one channel from the desk via Rode Wireless ...and one for an onboard shotgun for redundancy and room ambience...

One of these types of cams certainly looks like the solution!

The other thing I wouldn't mind is some cheap... clean HDMI out equipped 1080p camera for the Blackmagic Atem Min Pro....basically B and C cameras...these wouldn't need fancy audio....probably just onboard mics for Plural Eyes syncing if needed...

Thanks for all the tips!
 
I'm not sure the format is a real issue? I record on JVC cameras, or via a Blackmagic studio switcher but the actual format I record in is rarely an issue. We can edit (using Premiere) anything really - H264 is probably the format of choice (or at least what is usually set), but sometimes due to user error - we end up editing mixed formats and for us, it's not a problem. If we were doing things in schools and colleges, then all we need is a handclap sync point at the top or end of the shoot and that's sync sorted and while we do use Zooms a lot for audio, we often use the inputs on one of the cameras for program audio as they sound channels provide phantom and have plenty of dynamic range and while not as good a noise performance as the zooms, they're perfectly good enough. Sometimes we get footage from small POV cameras and even the occasional DSLR, and as long as they're running the same frame rate sync isn't an issue with a clap beginning or end. With decent lighting, we can use all kinds of cameras as part of the feed.

What exactly is in your workflow that is a bottleneck that you want to remove?
 
Formats could be an issue when you're working with a wide variety of them.

For instance, it wouldn't be wise to mix, say, Blackmagic RAW, ProRes RAW, REDCODE RAW and various flavors of H.265 unless you understand that you'll have to be savvy with various software and have the horse power to handle it all (and the knowledge).

E.G. A Windows computer with Premiere may do great with the Blackmagic RAW and REDCODE RAW but won't be able to work with the full potential of ProRes RAW and may break when trying to handle Canon's H.265.

Or a perky Apple M1 enthusiast with FCP-only will rip though 3/4 above, but BRAW will practically be useless for him or her.

Then there's the whole pesky color science thing.
 
Get a few old Sony F3's or F5's and timecode sync everything. They have all the pro I/o's for Multicam, and used they don't cost anymore than mirrorless or Blackmagic. But offer up a lot of Multicam features and easy codecs. I suppose the SXS would be the only slight draw back? But internal ND, flexible lens mounts, light weight plastic bodies. Robust BNC and XLR. By the time you rig out a new cheap camera, you are spending more money.
 
but he's not using these formats is he? Based on what he posted? I'll go back and read again. I'm still very confused over this sync concern? Timecode is fine, but of course free running timcode without syncing up all the cameras to the master source (can we say that any more?) Sync ceased being a concern once we moved to solid state.
 
For him, probably not (even though he was considering a Blackmagic studio camera with external Blackmagic RAW recording), but was just saying in general.
 
OP should clarify what he is trying to do. He might be imagining a problem where there is none. Syncing a few cameras now a days isn't that hard.

I film budget performances is with two match camcorders (one fixed wide of the stage, the other for the close ups). As long the cameras are recording the ambient audio to one of their channels, they can be easily synced . If you can record a video mix there will be no editing or syncing.
 
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Peter C. said:
OP should clarify what he is trying to do.....
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A very true word Peter! Part of this thread for me has actually been unpacking this with you all...so thank you..have really appreciated all the feedback and ideas as it has indeed helped me clarify what we are trying to do!

Have now got some answers...and just tonight ran an information session with the Atem mini Pro live streaming..and it worked really well...

So here is the summary of our key problems to solve...current answers and questions.

Problem:

1) We need a workflow that will provide a way to live stream events like weekly class Chapels, meetings and occasional musicals.

2) We need to also simultaneously record this event so it is available for parents to watch later.

3) We need audio to be of a better quality than just a shotgun mic onboard the camera...preferably making use of Hall PA system when available or external SM58 on a stand etc.

4) We need to do this all in as simple a workflow as possible...so that a staff member or students who have never heard of Red cameras..Blackmagic Raw..Codecs...Dual audio workflows..timecode syncing etc...(as I have)...can do it...they may need a bit of training..but they don't need to be industry vets...


Tools at our disposal:
  • Atem Mini Pro + Cat 6 HDMI extenders
  • Canon XA10
  • Hall PA with mixer, stereo output and all manner of microphones from Choir mics, to SM58, 57's etc.
Proposed solution:

1) We purchase one new A Camera..this camera will have 2 x XLR inputs...good low light...and physical controls that allows live mixing of audio via headphone jack and easy to read level meters.

2.) We plug in one onboard shotgun microphone...OR a direct SM 58 on a lead if a smaller meeting into A Camera

3) Into the second XLR we buy and utilise a Rode Wireless 2 GO...in a hall context this takes the output from the mixer and directly feeds into the camera for live mixing on the camera using headphones and levels.

4) The A Camera feeds audio and video directly into HDMI input 1 on Atem Mini Pro...it is master video/audio.

5) The XA10 becomes a B camera view..pluggd into Atem mini via Cat 6 extender/HDMI (Student trained to use)

6) We purchase a C camera that provides clean HDMI out...pluggd into Atem mini....something under $1000 that does the job! (again connected via Cat 6 or HDMI - student trained operator)

7) The Atem Mini Pro is hooked up directly to a laptop..and connected via OBS for both audio and video stream...

8) We stream live directly to Youtube with an unlisted link shared with our parent community via Intranet/internal comms.

9) The live Youtube stream is later given a basic edit start/and end...we have our recording...job done!

10 ) We also press record on A camera for redundancy + B and C

11) We can record with OBS too..for a multi cam recrding backup,

12) In the event of a very special event...eg a Musical...we record on A, B, and C cameras...(or above workflow collapsing)...we also record at sound desk via mixer...We can then.do the traditional multi cam mix with Premiere Pro and Plural Eyes if all else fails or we need higher quality than the 1080p live feed.

How does that sound?

Final questions for anyone still with me!

1) What is a good A camera that provides 2 x XLR inputs easy physical controls to monitor + acceptable pre amps etc? Maybe we need to spend more than $2500?

Current top contenders mentioned include the Canon XA50......good low light..1080p...easy to use..BUT I don't like the location of the mic level dials compared with my old faithful HVX202!

Maybe the Blackmagic Studio cam...or an old Sony F3 or F5...etc.

2) What is a good cheap clean HDMI Out C Camera that just provides a good image...and can at least record?

Thanks for all your support and/or any comments on the plan here! Appreciate your patience as I get my head around this!
 
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Can you just try, test something and see if it works?

Like, we can say, "Yeah, that will work." - but I don't know how much that will help you.

In video production, it is pretty much a fact that you will encounter issues even with a very solid blueprint. Like you may realize the IQ between cameras is too great and you don't approve, or there are delays in the pipeline, or the audio setup needs to be tweaked, or the people being trained keep messing up PluralEyes...

All of these cameras do different things...did you watch any YouTube on them to see if you like what you see?

In my experience, some of the richest private schools here in the northeast have streamed their simple auditorium productions with one iPad and the parents were thrilled.

With everything considered, don't you also think they'll likely love anything you do just so they can see their kids?
 
NorBro said:
Can you just try, test something and see if it works?


All of these cameras do different things...did you watch any YouTube on them to see if you like what you see?
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Thanks...really the whole thing is fairly simple now..just going to research an A Camera and a C Camera...

We know what we're after...key feature..easy to control audio levels...XLR inputs..clean HDMI

The quality from our exising camera did the job on yesterdays stream..(A Canon XA 30 I realised not an XA10 when I double checked the number!)

But need another events cam...so that is what we'll focus on....+ a simple clean HDMI equiped C cam..maybe a Canon if one of them can do it.

Researching away now! Thanks
 
Hi All. Have narrowed current resarch down to tgetting hese two additional cameras:

Baclmagic Design Studio Camera Pro

https://www.videocraft.com.au/blackm...-camera-4k-pro

Black magic Micro 4K Studio Camera

https://www.diamondscamera.com.au/bl...RoCj7MQAvD_BwE

BUT...the issue is the lens....it looks like we have to use an adaptor for our exisitng EOS lenses...which limits it to manual...unless we buy an expensive adaptor...

In that case we'd be probably better getting a dedicated 4/3's lens for it...=

Anyone used these Blackmagic cams?? How have you found them? They seem to provide good moniroting solutions and lots of manual controls...

Thanks!
(edit....that Micro cam looks like it doesn't have view finder...so might be better with one of their other cheaper ones)
 
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