What are your experiences and recommendations on Kickstarter vs Indiegogo, vs ???

[Rob Newton]

My wife and I are in the early planning stages for a docudrama that I believe/hope will have very widespread appeal. It will be about the demise of the infamous Red Baron, the German first world war flying ace.

The film will not be just another go on the bullets and ballistics of the event, though that will be a part of it. Rather the main focus will be on the real life players involved in the drama. We happen to live about 16 kilometres, just about 7 miles, from where Captain Roy Brown was born and raised in a small town called Carleton Place in Ontario, Canada. Brown was officially credited by the Royal Air Force with the kill. Anyone who is familiar with the story will know that there is considerable controversy about who actually got him. It may well have been one of three ground based Australian machine gunners. Or just maybe it was Snoopy after all.:happy:

We have previously produced seven self-funded feature length docs and a couple of shorter films, mostly with an historic flavour. Considering that we would loved to have had enough budget to actually buy some shoe strings, they came out okay, but with obvious limitations. You can see the trailers on our website at www.newtonfilms.ca.

But now we want to do one right, and that will take a reasonable budget. Bare bones will be about $35K Canadian, and more would allow us to ramp up the production levels further.

So with that background in mind, have any of you ever tried either of those two platforms, or perhaps some other one, either with or without success, and would be willing to give us some guidance? We would truly appreciate your comments and advice. Thanks.

 

[puredrifting]

My wife and I are in the early planning stages for a docudrama that I believe/hope will have very widespread appeal. It will be about the demise of the infamous Red Baron, the German first world war flying ace.

The film will not be just another go on the bullets and ballistics of the event, though that will be a part of it. Rather the main focus will be on the real life players involved in the drama. We happen to live about 16 kilometres, just about 7 miles, from where Captain Roy Brown was born and raised in a small town called Carleton Place in Ontario, Canada. Brown was officially credited by the Royal Air Force with the kill. Anyone who is familiar with the story will know that there is considerable controversy about who actually got him. It may well have been one of three ground based Australian machine gunners. Or just maybe it was Snoopy after all.:happy:

We have previously produced seven self-funded feature length docs and a couple of shorter films, mostly with an historic flavour. Considering that we would loved to have had enough budget to actually buy some shoe strings, they came out okay, but with obvious limitations. You can see the trailers on our website at www.newtonfilms.ca.

But now we want to do one right, and that will take a reasonable budget. Bare bones will be about $35K Canadian, and more would allow us to ramp up the production levels further.

So with that background in mind, have any of you ever tried either of those two platforms, or perhaps some other one, either with or without success, and would be willing to give us some guidance? We would truly appreciate your comments and advice. Thanks.

Hi Rob:

Since you are in Canada, it seems as if you have a lot more potential governmental financial support possible than we do here in the states?

http://canadacouncil.ca/funding/grants
https://www.lightsfilmschool.com/blog/canada-film-grants-and-funding-sources/43
http://onf-nfb.gc.ca/en/produce-with-the-nfb/filmmaker-support-programs/
http://www.csif.org/resources/funding-opportunities/

I know several documentarians who have made self-funded films via Indiegogo and Kickstarter. The downside to doing that is that it will basically become a full time job in order to constantly speak with donors, post updates, tie in your entire social media campaign to your Indiegogo or Kickstarter campaign. The "beast" must be fed almost daily, you cannot just post a campaign and hope people donate, you have to work it and work it a lot. You have to appear on podcasts, radio, TV, at functions, etc. to sell your vision. In a way, you or your wife will just become a F/T employee of the fund raising campaign which typically lasts for 2-6 months, it's a ton of work and you will need up front funds for your premiums, giveaways, t-shirts and the fulfillment of said swag will take a lot of your time and money. A good friend of mine funded her documentary using Indiegogo, she said she spent $6,000.00 on swag and the labor necessary to package and ship it all out. In the end, she raised U.S. $28k but spent $6k on this, netting $22k. She worked for approximately 8 months on it. Considering most of us could work a full time job and hopefully net a lot more than U.S. $22k in 8 months, you have to ask yourself if your time, blood, sweat and tears are worth it.

Personally I feel that a smarter strategy is to seek out corporate sponsors, although your subject matter would be a tough sell to any corporate sponsors I can think of. Some other difficult questions you need to ask yourself is "Is this project commercially viable?" Are you going to have any celebrities interviewed? Why do you think something from a century ago will have widespread commercial appeal? Would Netflix, Amazon or Hulu buy it? How do you know? What are your demographic data showing you about the spending and viewing habits of your potential audience? Can you really make a compelling, commercially viable documentary on this subject matter with such a minute budget? Is your audience going to be too old to have OTTs and potential outlets care about it? I love history, but to me, your particular subject matter is not broadly interesting to me, but I am more of WWII guy. Perosnally, I think you have an uphill battle to produce a compelling documentary about that even with a half million dollar budget, much less a microbudget, but I am not trying to discourage you from making it.

The subject of documentaries is near and dear to my heart, I was a DP on a Muhammad Ali documentary last year that is finishing up post and will hopefully be seen on Netflix by this Fall. I shot a documentary on Watergate that aired on PBS nationally here in the states, I am currently on production on a documentary about a South American musical icon that will be amazing, the backers are a UK distributor. The producer I am shooting it for is a successful documentary director who has a film in theaters in the U.S. right now on John Coltrane, he has won Sundance before, he is very experienced and a great storyteller. I am currently shooting and assembling sizzle reels and full pitch packages on four documentaries myself and have hired a pretty costly and incredibly knowledgable and connected pitch expert who works for NATPE, contact me off line if you are interested in working with her and hiring her, she is amazing and will blow your mind with marketing, funding and distribution strategies that you have no idea even exist, she was well worth the money for us and completely changed our way of thinking about how to actually produce commercially viable projects.

Just my impression from your post, it sounds like an interesting story that may or may not hold much commercial appeal. I am sure things are better in Canada but here in the states, most people under the age of 40 are completely, blissfully ignorant of most events that happened before 1980 so historical documentaries are a very tough sell. Even the Watergate film I shot, it aired on PBS which is a senior citizen demographic for things like this. People under 40, mostly don't know history, they don't care, they will not even click on an icon to watch it "for free" on their Netflix/Amazon/Hulu device. So in my mind, this limits your potential audience to seniors, who largely seem to be demographically not desirable to broadcasters, OTTs and potential adveriser/sponsors. Don't mean to demean or insult your idea but as a filmmaker in 2017 you have to ask yourself the hard questions. Where will I get the money to shoot and post my film? Who will distribute it? Who will want to watch it? How will I at least break even on my time that me and my wife will invest in order to make the film? Will I be able to pay my crew? How can I get huge entities to share my vision for my story and write a big check to allow me to create it?

The ideas I am at work on for our documentaries are all commercially viable and would be commercially desirable to an advertiser/sponsor audience, I have demographic data and research which supports this. All of the ideas have strong potential primary, secondary and even tertiary markets with easy ways to sell segments to all kinds of non-broadcast, non OTT buyers like hotel chains, airlines, etc. Loosely, they are pop/rock/dance music, sports, food fraud, lifestyle. One of our films has a strong offshoot into STEM for girls potential for receiving funding through educational and social grants from huge commercial entities. I am no expert in funding or have a track record other than being DP on several commercially successful films, but it seems as if the documentary world is really just a microcosm of the commercial narrative film world so a lot of the same rules apply as far as getting a film made and finding an audience for it.

I would say don't worry about Kickstarter vs. Indiegogo at this point and take a long look at this story and others you and your wife would like to tell. Do you want to make films that are seen by hundreds of thousands or millions of people or are you satisfied with making niche films that may be seen by just a very small, local audience? The most difficult but ultimately liberating thing I have learned is that you may think you have the vision or the film you want to make. But if you are pitching to potential buyers/financiers/distributors, you have to be VERY fluid and loose about what the idea is and how it could be sold and distributed. What if someone read your treatment for your doc and told you that they would rather option your idea and write a screenplay that would be turned into a feature film? Would you be willing to do that? What if you take your idea to ten potential financiers/distributors and they all tell you forget it, it's not commercially viable. Do you still want to make it on a microbudget and just have a few hundred friends and family see it? A lot of things to consider as you decide how to approach this.

There are no guarantees in this business, but if you want to make commercially viable films that have a real and sizeable potential audience, there is a definite roadmap/strategy that will at least get you onto the playing field.

 

[Design Media Consultants]

The only time I see people obtaining money from those sites, is when they have a reputation for completing other projects, and their content is outstanding. Essentially you are putting up an advertisement for getting money to finance your project. That advertisement must sell your idea. People will also look at your past work, etc. You cannot be boring and must reach a large niche. Your project must be commercial and appeal to a large audience.

Puredrifting gave you some priceless advice, study it and determine if you should move forward. Keep us posting.

 

[Rob Newton]

Thanks for this. I posted this question because we do have concerns that crowdfunding is nowhere near as easy or as sure fire as their websites suggest. So we absolutely value your advice and that of Puredrifting.

You make an excellent point about completing projects. That would certainly be my number one concern as a prospective contributor. In fact we have produced eight feature length documentaries, all of which were self financed, but none the less all completed and released. Trailers can be seen on our www.newtonfilms.ca ca and all are available on DVD and several on Blu-ray. Admittedly, they do have technical restrictions because of the lack of budget, which is one of the reasons that we are seeking financing to allow us to raise up the production values in this project.

One strategy that we might use is to launch a much smaller campaign for a smaller scale project first in order to establish our credibility in the crowdfunding world.

As for the subject matter, we realize that all things Red Baron may not play quite as well in the US as it does elsewhere, which is fully understandable since there was no American involvement. However it is very popular story in Europe, the UK, Australia, Canada, etc. We also have a unique hook for it because there is no point in just doing a rehash of several other films and documentaries, a couple of which are actually quite well done.

By the way, I have one piece of advice myself for others considering crowdfunding. About three years ago I shot a promo video for a brother and sister team who launched a Kickstarter campaign for a scifi based table top game. Things were going well and they were closing in on their goal with plenty of time left. The vast majority of comments were very positive, and many of them were enthusiastic. But as in all things internet, the trolls came out too. He got defensive and made the mistake of firing back at one of them who was particularly rude and obnoxious. As soon as he posted his response, the contributions dried up and they didn't get their funding. A real shame. So my advice to anyone else who might be considering crowdfunding is "NEVER FIGHT WITH THE TROLLS!" Even though you may be right, you can't win!

 

[puredrifting]

By the way, I have one piece of advice myself for others considering crowdfunding. About three years ago I shot a promo video for a brother and sister team who launched a Kickstarter campaign for a scifi based table top game. Things were going well and they were closing in on their goal with plenty of time left. The vast majority of comments were very positive, and many of them were enthusiastic. But as in all things internet, the trolls came out too. He got defensive and made the mistake of firing back at one of them who was particularly rude and obnoxious. As soon as he posted his response, the contributions dried up and they didn't get their funding. A real shame. So my advice to anyone else who might be considering crowdfunding is "NEVER FIGHT WITH THE TROLLS!" Even though you may be right, you can't win!

This is good advice. If possible, as the primary filmmaker, I would not have much to do with the nuts and bolts of the fundraising and social media campaign. Write a statement of intent/raison d'etre but avoid being the one who must do all of the daily posts. It is very time consuming, tedious and when you think about it, is totally taking you away from actually making the film better or producing the film at all. Most of the more successful campaigns have a person or team who is "feeding the beast", engaging with the posters and donors. Sure, small, grassroots, you probably cannot afford to hire someone but it is so all consuming, it really has little to do with making the film. I know of a producer who I have met and worked with who basically ran the social media and IndieGoGo campaign for his film for six months, he did well, almost $70k raised, but he said that the experience was so distracting, such a time suck, so frustrating and vexing that it has massively thrown his timeline off for completing post on the film.