What are the top line Cinematographers paid?

Charles I wonder if you can comment

There would seem to be a split somehow between DP which could be interpreted as a crewing task, or the DP that could some how be considered to be a visual consultant or suchlike

It would seem that the rate you quoted are OK for the 'crewing task' but does not represent a creative fee

It would seem to be that suggesting yellow, is more highly paid/respected than painting something yellow - if you get me - how do you sell the words 'paint it yellow'

S
 
morgan_moore said:
how do you sell the words 'paint it yellow'
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That would be a combination of reputation and good negotiating skills by one's agent. And probably being backed up by the director and/or producers who would allow such a line item into the budget.

To that, I would probably add the more recent attribute of good branding. These days there are individuals on the scene who have become "household names" via their blogs and short films/camera tests as opposed to their actual body of work, and in some cases that has translated into what you describe.

One more thought about this. Ironically, I find that the best paid jobs I get are often the easiest. Not because they are without their own kind of pressures (the stakes are indeed high) but because they tend to be on jobs where the budget allows for things to be done right all across the board. We have, relatively speaking, enough time to get the work done with the right tools and the right crew. On a job that is financially strapped, the rates are low and the resources crippled, and I have to focus all day long on cutting corners and calculating each decision like it is mission-critical, since there is no time to go backwards.

Case in point: last week I did a Microsoft job that paid decently and involved a manageable shot list. I was able to craft the lighting and refine the camera moves and we delivered exactly what was scripted, every time estimate was dead-on schedule and we were tail-lights right at 12 hours. Compared to this, my prior job had about three times that workload scheduled per day and my rate was 1/3 the amount. Smaller crew, smaller package and everything was a compromise and we had to work faster than we could communicate.

If somehow the economics were reversed and I was paid more to work harder, but was given the choice of taking the lower rate and putting the rest into more manpower or better equipment package or most importantly, a smaller page-count per day, at this stage of the game I'd do it.
 
CharlesPapert said:
.. allow such a line item into the budget.
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Thats not quite what I meant, I was being more metaphorical

I mean the fashion people, some must say - "2013 Its a blue year" or "London - its over - its all about Brazil now" and that could roll through to a pile of ad campaigns - a total look

Same with films/adverts you define a look a feel. maybe its over saturated, maybe alexa milk, and that feeds through to the whole feel

that rolls through, colour, location, props, lens choice

Maybe thats direction, art direction or whatever, but that is where the high fees are surely?

S
 
Sorry Sam, was thinking along the lines of this thread which is pure economics.

In the commercial world, that would come via the art director/agency. In the feature world, it may be the director's initial vision or it will develop through early conversations with the various department heads--production designer, DP, costume designer. As far as the DP collecting a consulting fee for this kind of thing--nice if you can get it, otherwise, it's just part of the prep.
 
I dont know about your local economy but the fees outlined by CP seem only to be reasonable, great beer money but if you have a couple of kids or whatever you actually need that very quickly

S
 
David G. Smith said:
You can now find bada** ACs, Grips, Gaffers and almost the complete host of filmmaking craftsmen in Des Moines, Knoxville, Peoria, Jacksonville and every region around the US. Anyone contemplating a career in the filmmaking crafts had better realized the real world market for their skills.
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Gross misconception - especially so since i've shot a commercial in Jackson, TN... and finding quality crew was HARD. My AC walked away from a camera on the jib in a buzzy location and my grip forgot to screw the bottom of the camera to the said job! Only luck saved the rig from tumbling to the ground. People, including people in this industry, have this misconception that everyone is a filmmaker because everyone can get a DSLR for $1200, and thus their skills are worth nothing. Most, one would hope, learn rather quickly that the experience is worth every penny - that said though i don't live in dream world. Majority of people don't care about quality and thus the jobs that are looking for quality (and are willing to pay for it) are as scare as ever - if not more.
 
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I've always believed that if you do what you love, and focus on doing it as well as you possibly can, then the money will follow. I may scrape by paycheck-to-paycheck, and I may not have the luxury of a varied diet, going out much, buying what I want, etc., but at least I get to do something I'm passionate about every day and I get to live life by my own terms. I'm a cinematographer. I love what I do. I've done features for what amounted to $2/hr when all was said and done, dealing with scheduled 20+ page days, resulting in projects that fall short of my own standards. I've done dozens of free music videos and shorts, I've worked ridiculous hours (40+ in a single sitting at least a half-dozen times in the last year), I've invested my own money (credit sometimes) into equipment in order to get jobs that don't pay much of anything. It's a struggle to find joy in your work without remotely fair compensation, and it's hard to show up to a set on your 80th straight work day for almost no money for a project that will likely get seen by an audience of hundreds if that.

But that's what it takes. That's what you're up against. Someone very wise once told me that success in the entertainment industry is a willingness to sleep in your car. If you aren't, there's someone else who is. If you don't have contacts or an in somewhere, and you didn't go to a prestigious film school, then the only thing you have is hard work. You have to take something from every project you work on. You have to refine your technique in situations that are less than ideal. You have to treat every project and every person you work with as if they were a monumental deal and through all of it you have to work on your own skills and abilities. Hollywood doesn't need you when there are many more talented people than there are jobs. You have to be faster, more creative, more flexible, and more enjoyable to work with. When you are in an environment with problems or with problematic people, you have to focus on what you could do to make the situation better rather than idly complain.

It's very difficult to find balance between taking opportunities to grow as an artist or craftsman and still fighting for value in what you do. There's no easy way to decide whether a low-paying (or even no-paying) job is worth taking for the experience and networking, or whether it's better to draw a line in the sand and refuse to work for less than you're worth. It's difficult to accept $200/day when your honed skill and time investment eclipses that of most of your peers who make significantly more and lead much more comfortable lives. It's difficult every time you open a Tina's burrito or bag of top ramen while looking at facebook pictures of your friends at fancy restaurants and out on the town. It's tough to keep your attitude positive when you receive a collections call on set in the morning.

Last year I shot four features, more than a dozen music videos, more than twenty talking head pieces, epks, or internal corporate pieces. I shot 6 weddings, at least as many concerts, and several miscellaneous events. I worked on multiple web-based advertising campaigns with large budgets. I've been throughout LA, to Vegas, San Diego, Florida, Arizona, Colorado, and now to Cancun. I've had a chance to work with a bevy of cameras and equipment, from my own modest DSLR packages to Red Epic shoots with 10-ton packages and a full crew. I've seen countless sunrises, hiked to locations that I never would have otherwise been, met celebrities and personal idols, been backstage at events I probably would have attended as a guest, visited a variety of soundstages and studios, and made a lot of things that I'm very proud of. It has been a very fulfilling year creatively, and I'm much busier than I can really handle to be honest. It's a pretty sizeable amount of work considering I've only been in LA for 15 months, but throughout all of that I barely made more than $20k last year. It's a constant struggle to pay bills within a month of their due date, my social life is non-existent, and my health has taken a dive. That's something I can ***** about while getting jaded about the industry as I slowly pick up more hours at a side-gig, or I can look at it as a real-world film school and the same paying of dues that everyone I admire has gone through. Though the struggle may be severe, there's rapid progress and opportunity out there for those who are willing to do whatever it takes to grab it.

At the end of the day, you have to be able to find satisfaction in what you create and your experience. There are infinitely better (and easier) ways to make money than through filmmaking, so that has to be a secondary consideration. This is a life of passion that only rewards the most tenacious and dedicated among us. There are sacrifices to be made along the way. It might take decades to work your way into a life as comfortable as that of the average 24 year-old in the corporate world, but the non-financial rewards and personal fulfillment are enough to keep me plugging away. It's not a question of if things will improve, opportunities will get better, and money will increase, but a question of when. It's not a life for everybody, but if your passion and art is of greater value to you than comfort and security, then there is no other choice. I just hope that someday a young cinematographer is awestruck at how much I got paid to shoot a film.
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
Gross misconception - especially so since i've shot a commercial in Jackson, TN... and finding quality crew was HARD. My AC walked away from a camera on the jib in a buzzy location and my grip forgot to screw the bottom of the camera to the said job! Only luck saved the rig from tumbling to the ground. People, including people in this industry, have this misconception that everyone is a filmmaker because everyone can get a DSLR for $1200, and thus their skills are worth nothing. Most, one would hope, learn rather quickly that the experience is worth every penny - that said though i don't live in dream world. Majority of people don't care about quality and thus the jobs that are looking for quality (and are willing to pay for it) are as scare as ever - if not more.
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Like I said Patryk, "...I understand the tremendous effect that modern technology, and a more than good bit of misconception about those effects, has had in driving down the wages for filmmaking crafts." Yeah, the "Everybody with a HD-DSLR is a filmmaker" mentality has negatively skewed what some folks think about what those who are skilled in the filmmaking crafts should be paid and there are a lot of folks running around calling themselves filmmakers that shouldn't. However, the technological advancements are not limited to the rapid rise of low cost cameras. Changes in all aspects of moving visuals communications, from production to post to distribution, especially with the rise of the internet, means that almost every major city in the world, has developed a professional moving visuals production infrastructure, especially those with a large corporate presence. Now I have worked mostly in Michigan and Virgina, and I have worked with with some great folks whom I have learned much from. Like you noted, I have also worked with some Ya-hoos that couldn't poor pi** out of a boot!. I think that might be the case across a lot of industries though.
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
Gross misconception - especially so since i've shot a commercial in Jackson, TN... and finding quality crew was HARD. My AC walked away from a camera on the jib in a buzzy location and my grip forgot to screw the bottom of the camera to the said job! Only luck saved the rig from tumbling to the ground. People, including people in this industry, have this misconception that everyone is a filmmaker because everyone can get a DSLR for $1200, and thus their skills are worth nothing. Most, one would hope, learn rather quickly that the experience is worth every penny - that said though i don't live in dream world. Majority of people don't care about quality and thus the jobs that are looking for quality (and are willing to pay for it) are as scare as ever - if not more.
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Not to be contrary but I was flown to Jackson, Mississippi and worked with crew that could have slotted in with any Hollywood crew in a second.
If you need some contact #'s let me know. But, we paid full rate, we weren't looking for a bargain.

When I flew into Seattle, I was working with a Gaffer that worked as Storarro's best boy on "Little Buddha".

There's great people everywhere, you just have to know who to contact.
 
thanks all!

(Steadicam operator now in the "former occupation" category, along with gravedigger, Chippendales dancer etc.)
 
I've heard some top DP's can bring in 25k a week, but these are oscar winning ASC DPs
I'd say most DP's make a comfortable living, even the struggling ones like myself :D
 
Very interesting read this is :) in my opinion, along with the audio production, DP's are the most important roles on the set. Not that others are less important, after all, it's all a team effort and you can't exclude nobody, but film deals with our eyes and ears first, so I would say a good DP can make up for lackluster or average story, but very few people will appreciate the best script in the world if photography looks like crap.

I know it's not all black and white like I've presented it, but in my own opinion, DP's are just a notch ahead of every one else...their vision is what we actually get to see in the final product, they make those letters from the script appear on the screen.

They should be paid next to director level.
 
That's a slippery slope to go down. You may say the DP's are more important... but what about your actors? Not much of a movie if there's no one to say the words the screenwriter wrote. Not much for them to say if there's no screenwriter, either. And you're not going to be shooting them if the AD hasn't made sure they're awake, with proper directions to set. And they won't look very good if your AC doesn't have them in focus.


Et cetera... et cetera...
It definitely is a team effort. (and, as a matter of fact, I and many other people would put the story first, rather than the visuals... plenty of mediocre-looking movies that I love because of the script, very few mediocrely written movies that I love because of the visuals... Transformers 2, anyone?)

I can't ever bring myself to consider one person on set more important than another, assuming everyone's doing their job well... but I do agree that DP's should command a higher salary than a PA-- but that doesn't make them more important.
 
To add, a lot of what a DP gets credit for (at least from the layman) is often the result of a great Production Designer and/or location scout. Many people equate breathtaking scenery with great cinematography, when often it's really the location scouts etc. in conjunction with the DP who chose the location because of the way it looked. Similarly, a frame could have the most amazing lighting in the world, but it's going to look average unless it's dressed by a good Production Designer.

It really is a team effort, in all aspects of production, you couldn't really say that any one role is more important than another - the reality is they're all important. Different topic though, to how much they should/are getting paid.
 
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