What app (Mac) do you use for surround sound mixing?

Jg Marceaux BestBetter

Jg Marceaux BestBetter

Active member
Hi, my first post...

I'm editing a documentary in Final Cut Studio and looking to produce a 5.1 surround mix. What app do you use to create the final audio mix?

For the purposes of this documentary, I will have dialog in the centre channel, music and ambience on the L and R channels, and ambience in the Lr and Rr channels. I understand the basics of surround and can sort of duplicate the effect in Final Cut Pro, but it's fairly cumbersome. The app I'm looking for should have a surround panner, which makes the process easier, or so I've read.

I don't have a huge budget. The equipment I have right now is a G5 and FCS, nothing else. Some equipment I do intend to acquire over the next few months include a firewire audio interface, some decent audio monitors. Are these two pieces of additional hardware all I need to set up a 5.1 mixing studio?

I'm pretty new to all of this. Any help is appreciated, and thank you in advance.
 
Hey! Unfornunately, the DIY world of home movie making hasn't really embraced 5.1 mixing at home just yet for a variety of reasons. To really do it right, you need to mix at a studio that is using something like Pro Tools TDM with a good mixing board.

I know FCP, as of now, DOES NOT support 5.1 mixing, neither does Soundtrack Pro or Pro Tools LE.

However, I have heard good things about MOTU Digital performer:

http://www.motu.com/products/software/dp

And, I'm not sure, but I think Logic can do 5.1 as well.


So the homebrew workflow I would do is to edit in FCP, lock, output, do sound in something like Digital Performer, then, I guess, use Compressor to convert my WAV or AIFF files to AC3 5.1 files for DVD authoring.

Hope this helps.

s
 
At the risk of stating the obvious, you'll also need a propperly set up 5.1 monitoring environment.

When I work on a surround project, I will cut the sound in PT LE (a stereo-only environment). I take the project as far as I can in a stereo setup, then take it to a 5.1 mixing theater for the final re-recording mix. Most broadcast and film mixing theaters in my area are running Pro Tools HD, so my sessions open up in the mix theater without the added complication of interchange formats. By premixing everything in PT LE, I'm able to minimize the time required for the final mix, which is good since a propperly-equipped 5.1 mix theater with an experienced mixer can get pretty costly.
 
Jg Marceaux BestBetter said:
The equipment I have right now is a G5 and FCS, nothing else. Some equipment I do intend to acquire over the next few months include a firewire audio interface, some decent audio monitors. Are these two pieces of additional hardware all I need to set up a 5.1 mixing studio?
Click to expand...

I have a very basic surround set up that uses Logic Pro, a MOTU UltraLite interface, and 5 relative inexpensive Yamaha speakers. I do not have a subwoofer, and therefore do not use a Low frequency track (the .1 in surround 5.1), although I would like to add that piece of gear as finances permit. Logic Pro has surround pots, as does Digital Performer, and I have found Logic sufficient for my surround editing needs, which are pretty basic. I have heard that Digital Performer has some additional tools, such as better surround filters, but I have no personal experience with them. Cubase SX and Nuendo also do surround mixing, but I have not used them and Nuendo at least is pretty pricey. I believe Digital Performer is cheaper than Logic, but it does not include the synthesizers and digital instruments that Logic has. Another piece of gear you could get, although not necessary, would be a control surface for whatever application you get. I do not use one so can make no suggestions.

Kevin
 
I have a more basic question. Why do you want to mix in surround? There is very little reason for 90% of the narrative films out there and almost no good reason for a documentary. One reason might be broadcast specs but you will have to go to a real studio to meet those anyway.
Not saying you can't but why would you want to?
 
Jg Marceaux BestBetter said:
Hi, my first post...

I'm editing a documentary in Final Cut Studio and looking to produce a 5.1 surround mix. What app do you use to create the final audio mix?
Click to expand...

It looks like the only app you will need now is to upgrade your copy of FCS to FCS 2. The new version of Soundtrack Pro will include support for surround sound mixing--no other app needed. You just have to wait until it ships in May.

Kevin
 
kwoff said:
It looks like the only app you will need now is to upgrade your copy of FCS to FCS 2. The new version of Soundtrack Pro will include support for surround sound mixing--no other app needed. You just have to wait until it ships in May.
Click to expand...
Fantastic! Perfect timing for me! I am so happy. It looks easy to use, too.
 
zoostory said:
Noiz2, for those of us with HD TVs and 5.1 systems in our house, we want 5.1.
Click to expand...


That is probably the worst reason poss to mix in surround, and a rather stupid expectation on the users end. All you get is a lesser mix. People aren't budgeting for a stereo mix and these same folks who can't figure out sound for two channels you want to mix for six? Second IS that the market this guy is going for, if so fine. But it's marketing not art. In which case go for what happens on 90% of the big budget films. Mix in stereo, or actually three channel (dialog in the center), then splash a little reverb in the surrounds. For the hand full of folks who are not going to be happy if it doesn't say "5.1" on the box your golden. For the vast majority who will be listening in stereo you have at least a decent chance of doing a mix.
If your going to festivals it will be in stereo, unless you bought a license, not too likely.
I don't think you can sell DVD's with AC3 encoded tracks with out a license , could be wrong but you sure can't put the dolby name on it with out a license. So I have a hard time seeing the point except for the geewiz factor.
 
Dolby and THX require licenses. AC3 & AAC (Apple's surround - which can be compressed right from within the QuickTime app - nice huh?) does not. Astarte' charges for an AC3 encoder, to name one for example, but not a repro license (at least not anymore I don't believe. Used to be around $5,000 but I think Apple has now borged them).
 
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The question really goes to what you want to end up with, or better who your trying to sell to. Unless your going to festivals that will play a DVD of your film AC3 doesn't matter. If your selling DVD's AC3 does matter because you will need to encode in that format, and you may need a license. Prologic requires a license, as does SRS. SRS is a lot cheaper. THings like Dolby Digital not only require a license (around $12,000), but have to be done in a certified mix stage. If your showing it for friends in their homes then pretty much none of this applies. If your hoping for broadcast then you probably need to go to a facility and do a broadcast compliant mix. I say probably because for local or public access you can probably do a mix that will pass. If your looking at something national they have very strict requirements and a lot of them require a specific spec that can only be done with a Dolby box that goes for around $5,000, so again your not likely to be doing this in your bedroom.



FYI AAC is a compression format as is AC3 neither are nec. Surround. However if your making a DVD that you want to play you better be using AC3 not AAC.


"Advanced Audio Coding (AAC) is a standardized, lossy compression and encoding scheme for digital audio.
AAC usually achieves better sound quality than the more popular MP3 format when compared at the same bitrate, especially for bitrates below about 100 kbit/s.
It is the default, and most commonly used format for compressing audio CDs for Apple's iPod and iTunes (Extension .m4a). Apple uses the AAC format for all audio for sale on the iTunes Store.
AAC is also used as the standard audio file for Sony's Playstation 3 and as the default audio codec for the .m4v format that Apple employs in its iTunes Store video files."

THX is a certification program. You can't buy a license, you can pay to get certified. It has to do with acoustics and frequency response of the system and room. It doesn't have anything specifically to do with surround. You could have a stereo THX certified room.
 
Didn't really say where or what format the final mix will end up in. If it's simply on a computer, check out the link below. The really sick thing is, you mix out your 6 stems as wavs, aif's or SDII's (16 OR 24 bit) and then you can simply add and allocate those stems right within the Quicktime application.

If it's going to be an actual DVD disc then AC3 is the place start.

BTW Dolby Pro Logic & PLII & SRS simulates or transforms a stereo signal into five playback channels of surround. They're not used much (well, not actually created much anyway- playback using these formats/algos still lurks) these days and could be considered a legacy surround (for lack of better description).

http://www.thismuchiknow.co.uk/?p=24

... here’s where it gets interesting. For some time now, Apple has been distributing its HD movie trailers with 5.1 audio. But not as an encoded AC-3 audio track - as after all, neither QuickTime player, iTunes, nor FrontRow can play those as mentioned above. Instead, Apple’s trailers come with an AAC-format soundtrack containing six discrete channels, matching the 5.1 channels mentioned above...
 
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Prologic SRS et al do not "simulate or transform a stereo signal into five playback channels of surround". And it is not a "legacy" format. Most films you have seen that are in "surround" were probably in that format. All Dolby Digital films are also encoded in "Dolby Surround". It is a four channel matrixed surround format, with a virtual .1 sub channel. Digital sound tracks glitch from time to time so all films have an optical track that will kick in if the DD track has a problem. Also MANY theatres either can't or don't play DD and are playing the matrixed track instead. Actually a shocking number of theatres that are advertised as playing the "Dolby Digital" film are actually using the matrixed audio.

...
 
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I just thought I'd weigh in on this discussion here. I for one, am VERY excited about the new Soundtrack Pro 2 being released. I have used Soundtrack Pro to do my editing and mixing for dozens of projects. I have to admit, version 1 had ALOT of shortcomings, mostly in the way it handled data and non destructive editing. However, I think the application holds alot of promise, and the addition of 5.1 surroun is a welcome one. I'm looking forward to hooking up my Firepod to 5 speakers and a sub and mixing in full surround. The simple integration into Final Cut Pro, really makes this a no brainer for anyone willing to take a little time to learn how to edit and mix audio. This software is priced WAY below Pro Tools and Nuendo, and I think this is a huge step forward for the Final Cut Studio. I'll let you guys know my thoughts once I pick up a copy.

-Steve
 
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