Vision

B

bressonftw

New member
I was wondering whether you guys are also concerned with 'vision' in terms of ideas or themes. How does one 'develop' something like a vision? What are your perspectives on this anyhow?

Or otherwise, we could perhaps discuss Tarkovsky's Sculpting in Time, and his ideas on art/the role of the artist/artistic vision etc.
 
Developing a vision comes from (at least this is how I see it) the development of self, I'd suppose. Knowing what you like and what you do not like. In all aspects of life, not just film. I know what kinds of books I like to read, and generally I can tell if I'll like a band just by their name or a title of their song. I know what kind of food I like, I know what kind of soap I like.

When I consider writing something or directing something, all of that will somehow congeal and present itself through the medium.

However, being concerned about it? I've never really thought about it. Seems like it would be an auto-pilot sort of thing... not sure if that's bad or good.
 
All I know for sure, is that the best directors in history all had very distinct visions. That vision is what makes their work memorable, and in the end, great works of art. How does one acquire that kind of vision? Hell if I know. There's a reason there are so few masters of this artform.
 
Vision sounds like a vague and mysterious term, but it's actually really simple. You see the movie one way, someone else sees it another way-- you need to get what's in your head into their head. It can be as simple as "The camera needs to be higher for this shot," or as complex as envisioning a gritty, dark, realistic Gotham City instead of one covered in neon green and bat nipples.

Lack of vision is when someone asks you "Where do you want the camera?" and you say "I dunno, I hadn't really thought about it. What do you think?"
 
This is how it goes for me -

I have an initial idea for a movie. I read the script over and over, dissect it. Then I research topics that are directly or indirectly related to the movie. My ideas for what I think will work and what I discover from research combine into my "vision."

It is then easy to communicate to someone else on the project my "vision" because I have both tools - the artistic ideas and the hard facts of research. You can use one to back up the other.

That's a very elementary summation, but I didn't want to ramble on. You're better off reading Directing Actors (Judith Weston) and Making Movies ​(Sidney Lumet) than listening to me.
 
i get vision by buying a new pair of glasses or contacts

Vision is ethereal!

It's the culmination of ideas injected with inspiration found in your experiences and influences in life.


uh oh!
 
I agree with john threat in a way ..... the word is over-used and not very precise. A mind meets a situation, a challenge and a lot of other creative people and tries to tell his version of a story.

Vienna writer and critic Karl Kraus wrote something in the sense of: People who have have visions should go and see a neurologist.

Basically everything springs from first a clear analyses of what you think a story wants in itself - and then what it may want from you - and you from it. And the journey begins.
 
Hmm, I was more wondering about stuff like "why tell this story", "what do you want to 'say' to the world", "what is my vision of the world which I might express in this film."

Development of the self sounds good, but then again 'how'? Personally I try to read/watch all the old masters/classics (and get into philosophy). Gotta love 'em oldies, Dostoyevsky is very good for instance!
 
bressonftw said:
Hmm, I was more wondering about stuff like "why tell this story",
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Can only speak for myself - have no theory here. I come across or have an idea and suddenly hear a certain sound in my head or I have a gut feeling that this idea/story/script may have something that appeals to me. I have - to an extend - over the years stopped to ask for deeper reasons in that stage and rather follow this first impulse and see where to it gets me and if it really is "stable" enough to survive the different stages of development. But, with some experience in the job and a over time getting more realistic view of myself, I find that the spontaneous "exactitude" of this feeling get's more profound over the years so I can trust this first impulse even more.

Apart from that: Finding out what kind of movies/genre may be the ones you like to make. The answer to this may not be the same at every point in your life but usually you may find out what I have found out - better to leave certain movies/genres to others. But the much more important part here is then to find out if what you like is also what you can really do - in some cases the answer can be a clear "no". Nothing more embarrassing than clear under-performance in a movie/genre you decided to do for any theoretical reason or because you like the genre but are not built for it - if you have no funny bones, don't do comedy, for example.

How to get there? Watch you mind like a border-collie: The moment you have hit the right mark, it will start emitting ideas. So the story or an idea give me the "why" rather than that I give myself or define or state a big mighty "why" first and then search for a fitting idea. I have grown to become extremely sceptical when I come across extremely "why"-loaden movies.

Example: While I am a frantic sucker for "A Thin Red Line", "Tree of Life" is so full of big "Whys" that - for me - it never really got off the ground, while being executed superbly in next to any aspect. So, yes: Exactly because I am German and was bombarded with big WHYs in my student days like London by The Blitz I have grown suspicious about them. Not to the least because the big why has another, rather unbecoming quality: It gives you in cases a totally wrong self-assurance that will lead you into a mine-field.

bressonftw said:
"what do you want to 'say' to the world",
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...first I am not exactly sure if the world needs me to say something to it. I feel I am more in the position of a musician who plays his tune because ..... well: He can. Sure I get impulses from the world or want to react to them. My last comedy was about people working in a rating agency. So I rather search for such impulses/themes that I hope I can transform into a workable tale. I am old enough though to have experienced some of the kings of Young German Cinema in their heydays when I was working as camera-assistant or boom-man. Oh boy, did they want to say much to the world and were their films at times boring like hell. If you want to burn me on a stake for me saying this, here is the right point to do it.... ;-)

And: No - I do not say movies are just for entertainment. I believe we all the time stand with one leg in the sombre halls of "high culture" and with the other on a blaring fair-ground and we have to find out for ourselves how much weight we want to apply to which one.

bressonftw said:
"what is my vision of the world which I might express in this film."
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First: I find it at times much more interesting to ask this question after a movie is finished. Second: I love the process of a story and me to develop, progress and grow "in-sync". My work, I hope, is a constant dialogue with the story rather than me having a fixed view on it. Every movie is a journey on a river you construct while you go on. May sound "lofty" to you, but I really believe that to be the case.

My 0,02 €.
 
tipota said:
Example: While I am a frantic sucker for "A Thin Red Line", "Tree of Life" is so full of big "Whys" that - for me - it never really got off the ground, while being executed superbly in next to any aspect. So, yes: Exactly because I am German and was bombarded with big WHYs in my student days like London by The Blitz I have grown suspicious about them. Not to the least because the big why has another, rather unbecoming quality: It gives you in cases a totally wrong self-assurance that will lead you into a mine-field.

I am old enough though to have experienced some of the kings of Young German Cinema in their heydays when I was working as camera-assistant or boom-man. Oh boy, did they want to say much to the world and were their films at times boring like hell. If you want to burn me on a stake for me saying this, here is the right point to do it.... ;-)

And: No - I do not say movies are just for entertainment. I believe we all the time stand with one leg in the sombre halls of "high culture" and with the other on a blaring fair-ground and we have to find out for ourselves how much weight we want to apply to which one.
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Would you like to expand on the WHY's in The Tree of Life? I would be very interested in reading how you view it in that movie.

Have not seen much by the Young German cinema yet, some Wenders films though (which I like).

I'm a bit of a sucker for high culture I guess :P
 
bressonftw said:
How does one 'develop' something like a vision?
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Don't think about it, but make a lot of movies. It's more important to finish as many as possible, so shorter movies are better. After you've finished about 30 movies, you will have developed vision without making any effort. Finishing is important because only when a film is done and shown to an audience will you see what you like and what you hate about it. Then you make the next one a bit better. Gradually, you do more things you deliberately like, and fewer things that you accidentally hate. That's how you build vision.

Sir Ridley Scott, who has one of the strongest artistic visions of any director, directed 2,500 TV commercials before his first feature. Spielberg directed TV episodes for years before his first feature.

Direct as much as you can, as fast as you can. The vision will emerge naturally.
 
I would agree with making a lot of films, but one of the things that is generally advised/regarded as important = life experience. But how about reading philosophy, good old classic literature?
 
bressonftw said:
Would you like to expand on the WHY's in The Tree of Life? I would be very interested in reading how you view it in that movie.
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I can give an explanation for my reaction towards THE TREE OF LIFE best by explaining why I loved THE THIN RED LINE so much. In short: LINE is a war-movie that could have been told in a very straight way. Straight in the sense of FULL METAL JACKET or THREE KINGS - and still we would consider it to be a piece of art and an entertaining film.

LINE did go one step farther in a lot of senses, even - in a way - celebrating war with all it's cruelty as a manifestation of "being". Best told in the episode with the Aborigine who does not "see", not even register the soldiers going to the line as if he is "military blind" or the colourful birds flying through the bombardment by the artillery .... for me: Both an eye- and heart-opener.

Whereas TREE starts already with the extremely well made story of .... now, how shall we put that: Everything? That is abit much, ins't it? And it ends, perfectly shot, with .... how shall we put that: Paradise? Now - for itself this is absolutely okay. I am not a teacher, I don't give grades and in relation to the mastery of the director of this two films I feel to be a rather dim light....

Still I prefer much more the film that seems to tell one story and opens, while telling it, the door to more basic and existential questions we all have ... than the other, that starts - sorry to say and it's only my view - a bit pompous and then falls back to a middle part I really loved ... and then the end which is... not my cup of holy water.... and I am born into a very catholic family.

And second: LINE seems to have more questions, TREE seems to have answers all though hidden and cryptic.... and I like questions more.....

bressonftw said:
Have not seen much by the Young German cinema yet, some Wenders films though (which I like).
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Strange that I do like Wenders' documentaries more than his narrative films. Clearly the YGC in the 60's throughout the 80's did indeed produce some highly artistic and recommendable films - but it also isolated itself from a greater audience by becoming too hermeneutic and/or self-inspecting in general. Naturallly a lot of Germans (and others) will disagree with me about this - but that's okay with me....

bressonftw said:
I'm a bit of a sucker for high culture I guess :P
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I am a bit of an eclecticist: For me it's not at all a contradiction to love ANDREI RUBLEV by Tarkowski and HORTON HEARS A WHO.... I am a bit of a sucker for mastery though - be it in the high or the low culture. Why I should not be allowed to love Jeff Beck and Glenn Gould, Picasso and Carl Barks at the same time was and is a mystery to me..... ;-)
 
Bressonftw: There is a lot of really good advice on this topic within these post. I'm very impressed. There is your answer to VISION. Remember, you have a vision for a project, then you hope to bring in the team that will bring that vision to a fruition. Actors, if they are well trained, will also bring their vision to the character. It is extremely important to allow them to do so, that's why you hired them. So, vision, like directing and the numerous posts here, is subjective. Vision is what makes us all unique.
 
Life is made up of mundane: eat, sleep, crap, make love, get warm when cold or search for shade when in the sun, pay the rent etc; and more mystical moments: you walking by your dog or cat at dusk, the animal looks up at you and in fraction of a moment you see whole universe reflected in its eyes, or a light shimmers on your keyboard and the moment is magic and soon after you get angry at yourself for finding out that the light was a simple reflection from a building nearby. Real and mystical all within one person. I think people who are too realistic or too mystical loose a bit from ability to experience life to its fullest. Thus it's imperative to do both. Engage life on the most rudimentary level but also allow yourself the more magical moments to happen. Watch a lot of stuff, read a lot, look at paintings, listen to music, think, listen, don't be afraid to speak up if you do have something to say. Only the last part fully relates to vision. One needs to know oneself to know what to consume, in which direction to grow. There is too much content available for one not to be selective. Look at the stuff you enjoy unconsciously and ask yourself why that is? Are there any reasons why the film you want to make is so different then the ones you enjoy? If so then you are trying to prove something to the world or are not fully hones with yourself.
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
Life is made up of mundane: eat, sleep, crap, make love, get warm when cold or search for shade when in the sun, pay the rent etc; and more mystical moments: you walking by your dog or cat at dusk, the animal looks up at you and in fraction of a moment you see whole universe reflected in its eyes, or a light shimmers on your keyboard and the moment is magic and soon after you get angry at yourself for finding out that the light was a simple reflection from a building nearby. Real and mystical all within one person. I think people who are too realistic or too mystical loose a bit from ability to experience life to its fullest. Thus it's imperative to do both. Engage life on the most rudimentary level but also allow yourself the more magical moments to happen. Watch a lot of stuff, read a lot, look at paintings, listen to music, think, listen, don't be afraid to speak up if you do have something to say. Only the last part fully relates to vision. One needs to know oneself to know what to consume, in which direction to grow. There is too much content available for one not to be selective. Look at the stuff you enjoy unconsciously and ask yourself why that is? Are there any reasons why the film you want to make is so different then the ones you enjoy? If so then you are trying to prove something to the world or are not fully hones with yourself.
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Awesome.
 
PopcornFlix said:
After you've finished about 30 movies, you will have developed vision without making any effort.
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I think this is more along the lines of "style". Vision, I think, is literally having a vision of the movie playing out in your head. Like Robert Rodriguez (and a few others I can't remember) said... you need to be able to watch the scene in your head before you even start shooting. It's a combination of very good audio/visualization brain-memory and creativity. I really do think it's something that certain people are predisposed to... it's not something that just anyone can develop.

Kind of like composing and music... you can take all the music theory and instrument lessons in the world... but if you don't hear new songs in your head, there's nothing you can do about it.
 
"Kind of like composing and music... you can take all the music theory and instrument lessons in the world... but if you don't hear new songs in your head, there's nothing you can do about it."

I would call that one false.That may be how Mozart did it in Amadeus, but a whole hell of a lot songs appear when you play with instruments, chords, notes, sound effects, rhythms etc. There isn't one way of writing a song. I've written dozens, and I'm not trying to claim they should be in the same paragraph with Mozart, but that's just the reality of it.

Showing up is most of the game.

Movies and vision are crafted by dozens, perhaps hundreds of people. Many of them excel in their areas of expertise. The best thing a director can do, besides having a script worth shooting, is have a DP with "vision." Actors with "vision" and an editor with "vision." Already there's a lot of vision going into this thing.
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
Life is made up of mundane: eat, sleep, crap, make love, get warm when cold or search for shade when in the sun, pay the rent etc; and more mystical moments: you walking by your dog or cat at dusk, the animal looks up at you and in fraction of a moment you see whole universe reflected in its eyes, or a light shimmers on your keyboard and the moment is magic and soon after you get angry at yourself for finding out that the light was a simple reflection from a building nearby. Real and mystical all within one person. I think people who are too realistic or too mystical loose a bit from ability to experience life to its fullest. Thus it's imperative to do both. Engage life on the most rudimentary level but also allow yourself the more magical moments to happen. Watch a lot of stuff, read a lot, look at paintings, listen to music, think, listen, don't be afraid to speak up if you do have something to say. Only the last part fully relates to vision. One needs to know oneself to know what to consume, in which direction to grow. There is too much content available for one not to be selective. Look at the stuff you enjoy unconsciously and ask yourself why that is? Are there any reasons why the film you want to make is so different then the ones you enjoy? If so then you are trying to prove something to the world or are not fully hones with yourself.
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This. 100% this. The last sentence in particular is something i've been struggling with a lot.
 
mail4joeg said:
The best thing a director can do, besides having a script worth shooting, is have a DP with "vision." Actors with "vision" and an editor with "vision."
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So you're suggesting that the best way to direct is just to dupe others (who are more talented than you) into working on your production and then taking credit at the end? This is, in my eyes, nothing more than exploitation of other artists. It's stealing. The DP and editor should never be "adding" anything to the project... they should be executers of these crafts that lighten the work load when the production gets into larger scales.

Anyways, even if you find a crew that doesn't mind working for you... the idea of a "editor" with vision doesn't even make sense to me. When I go into projects I already see in my head what the edit is going to look like, that's how I know what to shoot, and what performances to get. I don't see how there can be separate "visions" for each department... there is only one movie in the end, one vision. If someone is not seeing the finished product in their head from the start (vision), then they probably shouldn't be directing. I don't even know how it would be possible. How would you know what anything is supposed to look or sound like?
 
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