Virtual Production Camera Question

T

tayproductions

Well-known member
I am not sure if this is the right place for this or not, but I thought I would try here first.

We are moving into the world of virtual production. We have the LED Volume, the computer to run Unreal, and the tracking hardware. We are trying to decide on a camera. We are looking at the URSA mini pro 12K with OLPF and the Red Komodo. For virtual production and reducing moire, is it better to have the OLPF on the Blackmagic or the global shutter on the Red?

TIA for any help you can provided.
 
tayproductions said:
I am not sure if this is the right place for this or not, but I thought I would try here first.

We are moving into the world of virtual production. We have the LED Volume, the computer to run Unreal, and the tracking hardware. We are trying to decide on a camera. We are looking at the URSA mini pro 12K with OLPF and the Red Komodo. For virtual production and reducing moire, is it better to have the OLPF on the Blackmagic or the global shutter on the Red?

TIA for any help you can provided.
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There are several good threads on this exact topic on Reddit. I'll link below, rather than copying and pasting. They may not address the the Komodo vs. the Ursa 12K specifically, but a lot of the discussion will help to answer your questions.

https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualproduction/comments/13xp82t/camera_for_virtual_production
 
Speaking of virtual production, I just got off of two days on a virtual set. I was only in charge of stills on this one, but I got to see quite a bit of how the video part of the production went down. Interesting technology at work for sure.
IMG_8099.jpeg
I need to blur out the product at this point still, but we used a combination of practical foreground with a digital set extension.

We worked with a great art director who did all of the set build and decoration. He was absolutely critical to selling the location feel.
 
Oh and to answer the OP’s original question, the video team was shooting on Red V-Raptor XL (X) for locked off and dolly shots and the original Red Komodo on a Ronin 2 for jib shots. I’ll post some more BTS when I get a chance.
 
A few more BTS photos for those interested in virtual production below:

25_SOP_20250307_7667_2400px.jpg
Our main setup consisted of three screens. The main display/background, a smaller overhead panel and a somewhat larger side panel that was mostly obstructed by set design for what we were doing.

25_SOP_20250307_7677_2400px.jpg
A closer look at our camera setups ^. Unseen in this shot is the tracking/3D equipment that is being transferred over to the jib setup. A better look at that below.

25_SOP_20250307_8189_2400px.jpg

Virtual production was run from the adjacent control room with the backgrounds and virtual set generated in Unreal Engine.

25_SOP_20250307_8280_2400px.jpg
Our tech in the control room could adjust just about anything in the virtual setup. In our case it mostly amounted to changed position and colors of the foliage/trees or adjusting the density of the forest or moving the horizon up and down and back and forth. All of the virtual sets were constructed in advance and approved before shooting.

25_SOP_20250307_8231_2400px.jpg

From what I understand from some brief talks with the studio folks, their panel setup is the same (I think...) as productions like The Mandalorian, but on a much smaller scale in terms of size and number of panels.
 
I've never been more happy be towards the end of my career. Yes, this is cool technology and I hope those who embrace it find it rewarding and profitable. But personally, I want nothing whatsoever to do with any of it.
 
Doug Jensen said:
I've never been more happy be towards the end of my career. Yes, this is cool technology and I hope those who embrace it find it rewarding and profitable. But personally, I want nothing whatsoever to do with any of it.
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I hear you Doug, sometimes I feel the same. I'm going to have the opportunity to straddle two eras it looks like. I've seen and been a part of the more traditional means of production and now things like virtual production are becoming more common even here in the Midwest where I live and work.

I'm only about halfway through my working career, so I have to keep up with the times whether I like it or not. That being said, there's some fun and interesting tech emerging and if you can stay curious then it can keep you engaged and learning.
 
DustinSchmidt said:
I'm only about halfway through my working career, so I have to keep up with the times whether I like it or not. That being said, there's some fun and interesting tech emerging and if you can stay curious then it can keep you engaged and learning.
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That is exactly the right attitude to have.
 
I'm actually very happy to work on XR stages at this time in my career. I've lost my taste for driving unpaid hours a day to location, shlepping around in the blazing heat or punishing cold, chasing the sun as it goes in and out of clouds and across the sky, then racing against it when it drops to the horizon. There are still plenty of challenges involved--recreating the look of natural light, keeping things within the parameters of the screens, managing moire etc. My older self finds climate controlled environments with flat floors to be a solid fit.

I started diving into this world with the driving interstitials on Key & Peele some 12 years ago, when we shot with 5 cameras and three screens in a U shape around the hero car, an alternative I pitched vs process trailer and shooting on location. It was kind of a big swing at the time, but it worked very well on a number of levels and I liked the experience. The XR concept is most of the time far superior than shooting on green screen, with the various annoyances that brings. It's far more rewarding to light when you have a world behind the talent vs a green void.

So yeah...I'm a fan. It's not perfect yet, but it works for me.
 
I always wondered how all of this particular stuff came together.

Naturally you'd think schools, classes, training programs, sets, experiences...but how, what's the process, timeline.

I mean, it's not the most amazing knowledge to have, but it's niche enough to really have to know where to start and how to learn and grasp specific concepts for a lot of moving parts and details.
 
NorBro said:
Naturally you'd think schools, classes, training programs, sets, experiences...but how, what's the process, timeline.

I mean, it's not the most amazing knowledge to have, but it's niche enough to really have to know where to start and how to learn and grasp specific concepts for a lot of moving parts and details.
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I think it depends on the market sector, but for my end of it, when working with new tech one would typically reach out to a colleague who had done it for tips and pointers. In my earlier years I was pretty amazed at how relatively easy and successful it was to get through to what I perceived as industry titans for advice. The Steadicam world has long fostered a sharing environment so I was a little spoiled, but calling up some of the heaviest hitters who'd never heard of me and having them patiently explain how they'd gone about a particular shoot or build to a 25 yr old newbie was never something I took for granted!

In later years of course, message boards and then Facebook groups took over a lot of this. I was always fascinated at the depth of technical knowledge represented by some users who were either shooting for fun or in a very limited scope--some impressive book knowledge going on, I guess! (I'm admittedly bit weak when it comes to sounding knowledgeable about the tech side of color science and sensors and compression and those sorts of [cough cough] pedantic subjects).
 
CharlesPapert said:
(I'm admittedly bit weak when it comes to sounding knowledgeable about the tech side of color science and sensors and compression and those sorts of [cough cough] pedantic subjects).
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There are exceptions of course, but usually the more someone knows about that stuff, the less likely it is that they can do anything remotely interesting or profitable with that knowledge. It's probably always been that way. 500 years ago I bet the people who could tell you all about paints and pigments and brush hairs couldn't paint ****.
 
CharlesPapert said:
I'm actually very happy to work on XR stages at this time in my career. I've lost my taste for driving unpaid hours a day to location, shlepping around in the blazing heat or punishing cold, chasing the sun as it goes in and out of clouds and across the sky, then racing against it when it drops to the horizon. There are still plenty of challenges involved--recreating the look of natural light, keeping things within the parameters of the screens, managing moire etc. My older self finds climate controlled environments with flat floors to be a solid fit.

I started diving into this world with the driving interstitials on Key & Peele some 12 years ago, when we shot with 5 cameras and three screens in a U shape around the hero car, an alternative I pitched vs process trailer and shooting on location. It was kind of a big swing at the time, but it worked very well on a number of levels and I liked the experience. The XR concept is most of the time far superior than shooting on green screen, with the various annoyances that brings. It's far more rewarding to light when you have a world behind the talent vs a green void.

So yeah...I'm a fan. It's not perfect yet, but it works for me.
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I'm equally pleased to be inside a climate controlled studio with snacks and bathrooms close by, don't get me wrong. I also still enjoy getting out on location, but definitely prefer it at times of fair weather.

Charles, it's amazing that you were doing XR work 12 years ago. It's only just now started to pop up where I'm at. But of course Hollywood is always going to be first to adopt all of these filmmaking technologies. Maybe the more impressive part is that it's now trickling down to basically everywhere.

Exciting times.
 
DustinSchmidt said:
Charles, it's amazing that you were doing XR work 12 years ago. It's only just now started to pop up where I'm at. But of course Hollywood is always going to be first to adopt all of these filmmaking technologies. Maybe the more impressive part is that it's now trickling down to basically everywhere.
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Ugh, I forgot the important detail that it was rear projection back then, not XR. Essentially the same concept, different tech, with a lot less flexibility.
 
I had to go down to London to collect some kit from a prestigious arts centre providing eduction - people between 18-22ish, working on all manner of productions and it was virtual everything! set ups like the one above, and others where the room perimeter was full of sensors, tracking people and getting towards Star Trek like holodecks. Way above my comfort level. They were shooting for TV this way but it was also being used for stage performances where the scenery was all virtual. The image quality of those screens was amazing. The production world is moving very fast!
 
Re on location vs. in a studio, it depends for me.

I didn't get into this to be bound to a studio. But I also didn't get into this for poor working conditions, so I guess it comes down to finding the right balance while avoiding headaches with either format.

The XR stuff is still novelty but the honeymoon effect will wear off soon enough, as well as computing improvements, it will be drag/drop/boring again. Not necessarily in terms of results, but the process. If it becomes more of a 9 to 5 in the studio, then it's also worth considering if an equally uninteresting desk job would make you more money. I'm not saying XR is bad, but I do think the "this is great" sentiment comes from people happy with a change of scenery (XR pun). I don't think it's "be careful what you wish for" since it's likely here to stay, but it shouldn't be an all out war against location work.

I was quoted around $55kUSD as a day rate for a local studio, which is before the world is built, that's just studio and management form a tech on the day. They're obviously pricing it to fall just under the cost to shut down a street or to bypass other commercial/narrative hurdles associated with on location filming, which is smart but still inaccessible cost wise to the low budget projects. I imagine some XR places in these early-ish days are also buying packs from Fab (Unreal Engine's marketplace), with exorbitant mark ups, claiming to have created a "from scratch" world. There are plenty of video essays on YT about how lots of video games look the same. My point is, it's still not necessarily great value and also any XR BTS films have huge incentives to act like the tech worked flawlessly without any issues - otherwise it looks like a production company has poorly spent lots of money, so I always take these XR success stories with a grain of salt. They're like the decision to use Unreal Engine was amazing, it allowed us to move through scenes and do what we couldn't do on location (wow, we haven't already heard that a million times, it's the equivalent of Director commentary saying the crew worked hard and got up early), essentially just a commercial for the studio!

A local Gaffer thinks there will also be a struggle to find people capable of working on location, if people only know studio work. Like a lost art form, people won't know where to park, how to plan for the location change, how to put out fires liaising with the public in a not entirely closed location, how to wrap as fast as humanly possible when the homeowner wanted everyone out 2 hours ago etc. etc.
 
Interesting points, Rob.

The limitations of XR do exist. It's not right for everything, in the same way that shooting everything green screen isn't right for everything. It's really just a better way to shoot greenscreen, with more interactivity especially on the lighting end (car shoots in particular).

There are notably cheaper stages out there in LA, a swarm of lower end spots with humble screen arrays. Most are $10K all in, I've worked on some that are $4K.
 
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