Vertical and horizontal movement. What's out there?

S

Sttratos

Veteran
If you are using DSLRs or even when I had my FS7, moving the camera is as easy as pie. But since I sold my FS7 and moved to a full size rig things changed quite a bit. Good news is when using the full sized level of cameras there is normally budget to rent gear. But I still like to have my own gear for some things. Like special interesting low budget projects. My remote head jib is a no go now. Ditto slider. I have a track dolly but it's not always possible to lay track or take it to a shoot etc. So I need new gear.

Sliders are probably out for horizontal moves. Unless something heavy duty like a Matthews Slider. But to be honest I find sliders limiting with a full sized rig. Them beefy sliders are very expensive too. I would rather have something like the Matthews Dutti Dolly. Can do the job of a slider and dolly at the same time, as well as a table top dolly, doorway dolly and even use it underslung etc. Sliders can be underslung. But can't do all the above. So something like the Dutti Dolly seems the best option. But maybe I'm overlooking other options? I know there are several types of small pipe dollies and ladder dollies similar to the Dutti Dolly. But I really like the concept of the Dutti the best. But what other concepts and ways of moving a full sized camera horizontally are out there right now?

For vertical I guess a small jib with a fluid head at the end is the easiest and most versatile. A long remote head jib for large cameras is way too expensive, hard to transport and set up. Or are there any other ideas?

Of course a Technocrane, Chapman dolly etc would be great. But I'm talking something humanly affordable and usable with a very small team. For fully crewed stuff like I said they rent it anyway and I don't have to worry.
 
I have a bmc micro that I can do "any" move with - crane and/or gimbal,

My fs7-vlock-Miller head combo basically I only move it horizontally on a Dana style dolly or floor track.

The only height changes I do are mounting the Dana track at a slight incline.

Moving a larger camera/head in the vertical axis is the realm of heavy kit.
 
Dana Dolly can easily handle a full size camera. The main thing is just gonna be the (tripod) head that you put on it. I have a MYT Works Large Slider for more down & dirty use and it can handle the weight of a full size ENG camera(30lbs+), too, but the way that the "hi-hat" sits in the carriage, it can tip/move in the carriage slightly it you tilt too far down with a large, heavy payload. MYT Works told me there are "caps" or something like that that can screw into the bottom of the hi-hat to prevent that, but that prevents you from quickly releasing it or attaching it(not a realistic option). So if you're not doing complex/compound movements, it will be more stable.

I've never used the Dutti Dolly, but it seems like Matthews version of a Dana Dolly, but I don't think it works with curved track, like the DD.
 
morgan_moore said:
I have a bmc micro that I can do "any" move with - crane and/or gimbal,

My fs7-vlock-Miller head combo basically I only move it horizontally on a Dana style dolly or floor track.

The only height changes I do are mounting the Dana track at a slight incline.

Moving a larger camera/head in the vertical axis is the realm of heavy kit.
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Yeah, small cameras such as the FS7 are a breezy to move.

But moving a larger camera/head in the vertical axis doesn't have to be in the realm of heavy kit. There are several portable short jib arms which take fluid heads and are affordable and will take a full sized camera. Like I said I think this is pretty much the only option before getting into large cranes with remote heads. I just wanted to make sure I'm not overlooking any other type of gear. ;-)
 
Run&Gun said:
Dana Dolly can easily handle a full size camera. The main thing is just gonna be the (tripod) head that you put on it. I have a MYT Works Large Slider for more down & dirty use and it can handle the weight of a full size ENG camera(30lbs+), too, but the way that the "hi-hat" sits in the carriage, it can tip/move in the carriage slightly it you tilt too far down with a large, heavy payload. MYT Works told me there are "caps" or something like that that can screw into the bottom of the hi-hat to prevent that, but that prevents you from quickly releasing it or attaching it(not a realistic option). So if you're not doing complex/compound movements, it will be more stable.

I've never used the Dutti Dolly, but it seems like Matthews version of a Dana Dolly, but I don't think it works with curved track, like the DD.
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I'm pretty sure a variation of the Matthews Dutti dolly has been around since the 70s or 80s. Matthews is a much older company.

On the surface the Dutti Dolly may look like the Dana and all the other pipe dollies out there. But it can actually do more. Such as be used without tracks. I also like the simplicity of it. It doesn't try to look like a cool robotic spider or something complicated. It's simple, effective and robust. I believe it's also the lowest to the floor option. If you want to do curved tracks, which will then be floor tracks just put the Dutti Dolly on skate wheel trucks. Done. I have looked at several other pipe dollies. Dana, Kessler, EZ-slider, MYT Constellation Skater, Doug Dolly and all the several others which seem to be just all copying each other. The Dutti stood out as the most original and versatile so far. I might be overlooking something else. This is why I started the thread. :)
 
One of my favorite ways to shoot a lot of different angles in a short time is to throw a fluid head on my Seven Jib and then put the tripod or jib stand onto a heavy duty tripod dolly with lockable wheels. It is a beefy build, though. I've done this with set ups as heavy as an Alexa classic (sans EVF) & a Vinten Vision 20 head (similar to an O'Connor 1030 in size and payload). That's about as heavy a combo you can put on the Seven before things get nerve wracking. A draw bac is that the set up only works in spaces with enough room to maneuver around with the counter weighted tail end of the jib etc. But once you get the thing all built and balanced it's easy cheese to swing around for a variety of different shots or moves, unlock the dolly wheels to reposition into a new spot on the floor, etc.. For locked shots just frame and don't touch it (if it's properly balanced it will stay put), or grab the head/camera and handle it around for something that's neither handheld nor locked, but alive yet still heavy and steady. Kina fun to work with, but not a one-for-all solution (which really doesn't exist anyhow).
 
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keithlango said:
One of my favorite ways to shoot a lot of different angles in a short time is to throw a fluid head on my Seven Jib and then put the tripod or jib stand onto a heavy duty tripod dolly with lockable wheels. It is a beefy build, though. I've done this with set ups as heavy as an Alexa classic (sans EVF) & a Vinten Vision 20 head (similar to an O'Connor 1030 in size and payload). That's about as heavy a combo you can put on the Seven before things get nerve wracking. A draw bac is that the set up only works in spaces with enough room to maneuver around with the counter weighted tail end of the jib etc. But once you get the thing all built and balanced it's easy cheese to swing around for a variety of different shots or moves, unlock the dolly wheels to reposition into a new spot on the floor, etc.. For locked shots just frame and don't touch it (if it's properly balanced it will stay put), or grab the head/camera and handle it around for something that's neither handheld nor locked, but alive yet still heavy and steady. Kina fun to work with, but not a one-for-all solution (which really doesn't exist anyhow).
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The Seven Jib is exactly the type of small Jib I was thinking about. There are even shorter ones.

I have done the jib on dolly thing. For locked shots it's also easy to just sit the jib head on a tripod. As you say limited basically by the space.

So far it's looking like a small jib with fluid head on the end and a Dutti Dolly. But maybe somebody will point to a different piece of gear which hasn't been considered.
 
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Sttratos said:
Ok you are talking heavy as in counter weights. But counter weights are portable and easy to transport. I though you meant a large and heavy jib which is not easy to transport.

The camera is a full sized Alexa.
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Ease of transport is entirely your evaluation:)

Yep I think an Alexa is best managed on 'traditional' kit.. dana dolly, floor dolly, small jib.
Its simple physics really.

the other device..
The only thing that I have no experience of but might be worth considering is a tripod with a hydaulic centre column. I think they are called sachler 'pod's or suchlike.

If I were getting another tripod tasked with larger cameras Id certainly consider this.

To me fine adjustment of height is critical to good composition.

Stepping up Chapman have a 'small' dolly.. the Cobra http://www.chapmanleonard.com/dollies/cobra.html
 
How much are you going to spend on dolly/jib/HD slider/etc. vs. how much to buy a high quality smaller camera? If a heavy duty slider with counter balance and vertical usage features is going to cost you $6000, wouldn't it be a good consideration to just buy a $6000 camera that is much lighter? Do you always need the quality that comes out of the Alexa rig that you are currently using? And if you are using it for side projects of interest, does it need to be of the same quality as your Alexa camera? Would having a small backup camera ever save your bacon on a paid shoot if the Alexa went down?

Just an alternate point of view for you to consider in all of this.

Vinten make portable camera pedestals that would get you a couple feet of change vertically, but they are not as cheap as an FS5. We have older versions of these in our studio, used to have very heavy cameras and CRT teleprompters on them, and a big cam head: https://www.markertek.com/product/vin-v3950-0001/vinten-v3950-0001-osprey-light-pedestal

vs.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1185424-REG/sony_pxw_fs5_xdcam_super_35.html and a few lens adapters so you can use the same lenses as the Alexa.
 
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morgan_moore said:
Ease of transport is entirely your evaluation:)

Yep I think an Alexa is best managed on 'traditional' kit.. dana dolly, floor dolly, small jib.
Its simple physics really.

the other device..
The only thing that I have no experience of but might be worth considering is a tripod with a hydaulic centre column. I think they are called sachler 'pod's or suchlike.

If I were getting another tripod tasked with larger cameras Id certainly consider this.

To me fine adjustment of height is critical to good composition.

Stepping up Chapman have a 'small' dolly.. the Cobra http://www.chapmanleonard.com/dollies/cobra.html
Click to expand...

My point is weights are compact. They are just weight but take no space to transport and a single person can stack them on alone.

Hydraulic pedestals are big and heavy and only offer about 2 feet of vertical travel or something. If hand cranked then probably not smooth enough. I thought of that but it doesn't seem practical or very useful outside of a studio. ;-)

That small Chapman dolly probably costs as much as a small car. :)
 
Greg_E said:
How much are you going to spend on dolly/jib/HD slider/etc. vs. how much to buy a high quality smaller camera? If a heavy duty slider with counter balance and vertical usage features is going to cost you $6000, wouldn't it be a good consideration to just buy a $6000 camera that is much lighter? Do you always need the quality that comes out of the Alexa rig that you are currently using? And if you are using it for side projects of interest, does it need to be of the same quality as your Alexa camera? Would having a small backup camera ever save your bacon on a paid shoot if the Alexa went down?

Just an alternate point of view for you to consider in all of this.

Vinten make portable camera pedestals that would get you a couple feet of change vertically, but they are not as cheap as an FS5. We have older versions of these in our studio, used to have very heavy cameras and CRT teleprompters on them, and a big cam head: https://www.markertek.com/product/vin-v3950-0001/vinten-v3950-0001-osprey-light-pedestal

vs.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1185424-REG/sony_pxw_fs5_xdcam_super_35.html and a few lens adapters so you can use the same lenses as the Alexa.
Click to expand...

I already have a smaller 4K camera. This is the reason I didn't sell my remote jib or slider. But this is not what I want. :)

I want to shoot Alexa. Once you shoot Alexa you only want to move to another camera if at gun point. Just too damn easy to get awesome images. Only move which makes sense is F35 or Venice. But that would be as heavy as Alexa.
 
Well then your choices are to spend big money on big heavy grip and a big heavy grip truck to haul it around, and several crew to make it usable. Can't get something for nothing with the big camera buildups.
 
Sttratos said:
Hydraulic pedestals are big and heavy and only offer about 2 feet of vertical travel or something.
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As I said ive not used one, but to me one of the major impediments to getting the composition I want quickly with a heavy camera is being able to nudge the height to exactly where I want it.

Say two OTS shots they have a very specific eyeline and making the switch fast is handy.
 
Sttratos said:
Not true. :)
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Indeed. I've had an Alexa for a couple months now (the prices these days!) and shot with it half a dozen times (at work we shoot Epics, the Alexa is my personal projects gear, though work will rent it from me for some kinds of shoots that need the DR and ProRes ease instead of 6K and RAW). Only once did I have an AC. If you think about how you like to work and build your kit accordingly it's not that bad. It's a heavy camera, yes, but it's the right kind of heavy (if that makes sense). It's just built with the right kind of thinking regarding balance, attachment points, ease of use, etc. Mine fits inside of a Pelican 1510 with batteries, cables, thumbwheel electronic FF, handles, etc. etc. in a Lowepro camera shoulder bag. Just because the Alexa comes in huge heavy flight case doesn't mean you need to use it.
 
keithlango said:
Indeed. I've had an Alexa for a couple months now (the prices these days!) and shot with it half a dozen times (at work we shoot Epics, the Alexa is my personal projects gear, though work will rent it from me for some kinds of shoots that need the DR and ProRes ease instead of 6K and RAW). Only once did I have an AC. If you think about how you like to work and build your kit accordingly it's not that bad. It's a heavy camera, yes, but it's the right kind of heavy (if that makes sense). It's just built with the right kind of thinking regarding balance, attachment points, ease of use, etc. Mine fits inside of a Pelican 1510 with batteries, cables, thumbwheel electronic FF, handles, etc. etc. in a Lowepro camera shoulder bag. Just because the Alexa comes in huge heavy flight case doesn't mean you need to use it.
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Yep. I see the argument about having to have lots of crew when you're shooting with "big, heavy" cameras, but we've been doing it solo or just two people with ENG cameras for years. My VariCam's are at least 25lbs+ minimum with a basic shooting set-up(body, lens, batt). Another 10-15 lbs for stix. And I would usually be carrying that all on one shoulder. Plus a hip-pack with a spare battery(5.5lb HyTrons back then), microphone, toplight and other little necessities(easily another 8-10lbs). Ideal? No. Do-able? Yes.
 
Every shooting style is legit if it works for the project.

And that is the trade off.

You cannot cut one from the triangle, small camera, fancy moves, small crew

But you cant have this triangle; big camera fancy moves small crew.

Big camera, static, small crew is for example very do able.

Heavy ENG cams were often matched with large range zooms, so you picked your spot, and then bumped in on different areas of interest.. big cam, static, small crew.

Once you come in close camera height and positioning becomes more and more critical, so short lens work drives accurate camera positioning. ENG tends to be tele, while 'cine' is often on shorter glass.

Its very easy to close in on a subject either with a Gh2 (walk to subject) or an ENG cam (zoom in) but a heavy cine rig can fall between these stools.

--

My personal experience is that I operate with a single assistant. The 'big' camera (FS7-vlock) goes on sticks/dana and the small camera (BM-Micro) goes on the jibs/ronins/car hoods.

I am of the opinion that a crew of two cannot keep a reasonable setup count going with a big jib or complex track system - you need more people for that or will do your back or have the AD tapping his watch all day.

Sure two of us can set a big cam on a jib, but not many times per day. Id only go in with two and bigger grip if we were day playing with a specific mission as part of a larger crew.
 
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Ez FX 4' jib has a large payload capacity while still maintaining smooth ramps...just needs really sturdy Mitchel amount sticks. This does the trick with a good fluid head on a low budget. Raise the sticks to raise the height. 8' of movement can get you from 4' to 12'...which I find very useful for how cheap a solution it is.

I have been using the Shuttle Dolly recently. I keep a 100mm bowl on a 6' riser at all times. I use this for 5'-10' straight runs, with pipe tracks pre-built in the truck at both of those lengths so it's quick to set up on low-boys, apple boxes or on the ground. The 6' riser allows me to get decent movement forward and backwards before seeing the track. The compromise is that you loose the ability to get lower to the ground, but I find that to be a compromise I'm willing to make. I've been using this because it's faster to set up when I only need a 5'-10' straight run, or when I'm in a tight space. Also when I am limited in time but still need that movement. I also use it underslung from time to time. Not advocating the Shuttle Dolly over other dollies, that just happens to be the one I've been using lately.

I do find that keeping a doorway Dolly with a bazooka pedestal to be the third part of my low budget heavy movement arsenal. When I need runs longer than 10', need curved runs, or need to mount a jib to the Dolly, the doorway Dolly with bazooka pedestal is very handy. Can be used indoors relatively easy, and when space allows, I just put the jib on the Doorway Dolly (even without tracks) and put a fluid head on the jib. The Camera stays on this rig and we just move it where we need it without fussing with lugging tripod and built camera rig around...just push the Dolly where you want the camera. Without tracks, it's mostly for static or jib movements. But we have tons of flexibility on where to place the camera this way. It's the no-budget chapman Dolly ;)

Then we just keep a lighter B-Camera for steadicam and remote head work. As of late, I've been exploring just having the b-camera on a remote head the whole time...this is either a Movi or a Ronin. Then, we just move the gimbal with the camera attached from steadicam, to tripod, to jib, to dolly, to whatever. This means you have to have the mounts rigged to the appropriate plates for each support you are rigging to, which makes it a bit more expensive, but it saves time because you are just moving a built rig from support platform to support platform. You can keep everything on, so there's no down time of powering down or rebalancing. In this scenario, A-Camera is flyid-head and hand-held, and B-Camera is remote-head.

The usual crew for these types of jobs for me are Me (DP/operator), AC, Dolly Grip/swing...then G&E crew, but they are mostly for lighting and such, so not as camera centric. On these types of jobs, I often have to make compromises so I usually make my workflow in a way where I can use the least amount of people as efficiently as possible, so we can use more of the budget on lights, lenses, Production Design, etc... in the future, I hope to not have to make that compromise as often.
 
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