Daniel_Runyon said:
Your DVX will be useful for some time. SD isn't going anywhere any time soon. :beer:
And in that respect, Vegas remains the outstanding choice for use with the DVX.
vegas support for HVX
- Thread starter Neil Rowe
- Start date
Your DVX will be useful for some time. SD isn't going anywhere any time soon. :beer:
And in that respect, Vegas remains the outstanding choice for use with the DVX.
thisiswells
Retired
:beer:Jubal28 said:
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
Daniel_Runyon
Well-known member
Jubal28 said:
Yeah, but when you're standing there at a film fest or other large screen projection, it would sure feel nice to see max res and color reproduction. It's a tough call, but I'd have to sacrifice that for being able to work the way I like working, and I cannot stand working with a traditional A/B and Source/Record workspace....it just doesnt make any logical sense to me at all. Thanks a lot, old fogeys, for keeping the NLE world in the dark ages!:grin:
Daniel_Runyon said:
:grin: :grin: :grin:
:beer:
iamloser said:
Well....like anyone else who may or may not have personal or professional knowledge, if that's what Jan said, it's certainly diametrically opposed to anything I've heard. To suggest that Sony makes Vegas to support their products first, only, or anything else is simply bullshit. Pure, brown, liquified bullshit. You clearly don't know the history, people, or direction of Sony's Media Software team.
Vegas supported the DVX before any NLE. Vegas supported the JVC before any NLE. Sony Media Software is a completely independent division of Sony Corp. If Sony were completely tight, then you wouldn't find Adobe Premiere on Sony Vaio's, now would you? Vegas was the first hardware independent app, first app to support external preview, etc, etc. The team likes being first, and often is.
Good hell, the HVX camera isn't out yet, and yet you are demanding support. The primary onus is on Panasonic, not Sony. It's always been that way with third party support, and likely always will be that way. Otherwise, Sony is saddled with technically supporting something that Panasonic might mess with down the road. it's why other software companies have quit writing drivers and providing compatibility teams to hardware vendors too. The hardware vendors MUST be responsible for their own stuff. Good hell, XDCAM was out for a year before Vegas supported it, and it's still not 100% supported.
To me, it sounds like a bunch of whine, and a bunch of silly rumor and innuendo-mongering.
Sony's own engineers have made public statements on the handling of media from the HVX when it comes out. Has Panasonic given them a cam to test with? Footage from the cam to test with? codec? money to dev?
Gee whiz, a spaceship *might* hit Utah next week, should I go buy alien insurance? Point being, howsabout some evidence to back up the silly claims that I see being made here?:huh:
thisiswells
Retired
Your nationally known educational program for Sony Vegas proceeds you,"Spot."Spot said:
Do you imply that Avid, Apple, and Canopus are on Panasonics' payroll? If so, that's news to me!
Not a bad idea!Spot said:
..i have no idea where your coming from..
I have been speaking with sony media software's development team manager personally. I live in Madison WI which as you know is where the sony HQ for vegas where the development team is.. I personally went in there. Ive been personally communicating via e-mail. I personally put them in touch with panasonics partnership program manager because when they were speaking to me they seemed very eager to support the camera.. they requested i bring in my own personal HVX to test and work with.. which i was going to do when i got it.. I sent them every shred of info they needed to start working on something or know what it was all about. they recieved the info with open arms and smiling faces. when i first contacted them to be honest it seemed as if they didnt even have a clue as to what an HVX200 was. when I spoke with Jan yesterday to see how things were going on panasonics end, she said something to the effect of the contact she gave me at Panasonic sent sony HQ an e-mail regarding partnering that was "very open armed". this e-mail was sent to the same exact product development manager that i had been in contact with. I also gave the e-mail contact info for the panasonic partnership person to the sony contacts. I personally told sony that i was going to put them in touch with the panasonic contact.. they said "great!" .. then they fell silent.. no reply to panasonic.. and no response to me either. ..Jan's opion as Kevin pointed out above. (I didnt see who asked the question, but I had to laugh a little when I heard someone ask it and say.. "there have ben e-mails and such " or whatever.. because Jan and I had already talked about it earlier. .. but I wouldve let you know what was happaning if i saw who asked kevin.. sorry i didnt cath you there) was that it would be a "cold day" because there is so much animosity between the companies.. sony has a very long history of pretty much saying "whatever" to the standard or what the consumer wants and trying to build thier own proprietary synergized network of sony based products which alot of times work only with other sony items. ..the big flaw in your theory about sony supporting everything and everything is that when Vegas was developing most of its outreaching things.. it wasnt owned by sony.. it was still sonic foundry. now it is sony owned. and things dont look good.
now perhaps the sony contact is on vacation.. perhaps his e-mail was just down .. for a couple weeks.... perhaps they just want to do it on their own and not have to deal with people like myself and the panasonic partnership program manager. perhaps they are just going underground with their efforts of support and dont want to spill the beans.. which would be stupid cause almost all the compition either has or is rumored to be coming out with support already, so at that point your best option is to let the customers know youll be doing it too. but more than likely what the developers may have wanted and been excited to do finally went up through the chain of command to get some decisions made and corporate came back with a resounding .."it'll be a cold day" e-mail. becuase my contacts did truely seem genuinley excited to add the support .. keep in mind they are former sonic foundry employees and arent yet fully sonyized in their way of thinking. did I ever mention that I personally know some former sonic foundry and now sony motion pictures media division employess ..
so you can say whatever you want about how it sounds to you, but this is how its going down as FACT. and since I , and im sure Jan is not about to post the correspondence e-mails publically. theres not going to be any evidnece untill youve sat around waiting for them to support the camera for a while.. a long ..long while. again .. never say never.. we may just see that "cold day" but as of right now.. all signs point to -> no. sony may support things that are easy to adapt to their own established workflow.. JVC HDV vs sony HDV.. and such.. because its easy.. and JVC although a sister company.. is not panasonic. and to support DVCPRO HD which is a panasonic only codec.. and implemented only in panasonic cameras.. is just not sony like. they wont even put 24p on their prosumer cams because they dont wasnt to messs with their own cine alta.. why? money is money.. sell alot of little prosumer cams vs a few cine altas.. and make the same money (..likely alot more) and have your name out there more as well. but they dont.. so after giving it some sony corporate lensed thought, I really dont see a reason why they would support their arch enemies camera systems and technology on their own editing app. .. but they might.. they might just put out the next version of vegas when its snowing on the sun. who knows.. all i can say is whats going down as of right now. anitive support doesnt look likely, but as mentioned above .. there are other ways to still use vegas to edit the HVX footage. cineform connect HD and DVfilmmaker, or the avid DV100 codec at about 8 fps, or others that may still pop up.
anyway.. you can call me a loser.. but dont call me a liar.
I have been speaking with sony media software's development team manager personally. I live in Madison WI which as you know is where the sony HQ for vegas where the development team is.. I personally went in there. Ive been personally communicating via e-mail. I personally put them in touch with panasonics partnership program manager because when they were speaking to me they seemed very eager to support the camera.. they requested i bring in my own personal HVX to test and work with.. which i was going to do when i got it.. I sent them every shred of info they needed to start working on something or know what it was all about. they recieved the info with open arms and smiling faces. when i first contacted them to be honest it seemed as if they didnt even have a clue as to what an HVX200 was. when I spoke with Jan yesterday to see how things were going on panasonics end, she said something to the effect of the contact she gave me at Panasonic sent sony HQ an e-mail regarding partnering that was "very open armed". this e-mail was sent to the same exact product development manager that i had been in contact with. I also gave the e-mail contact info for the panasonic partnership person to the sony contacts. I personally told sony that i was going to put them in touch with the panasonic contact.. they said "great!" .. then they fell silent.. no reply to panasonic.. and no response to me either. ..Jan's opion as Kevin pointed out above. (I didnt see who asked the question, but I had to laugh a little when I heard someone ask it and say.. "there have ben e-mails and such " or whatever.. because Jan and I had already talked about it earlier. .. but I wouldve let you know what was happaning if i saw who asked kevin.. sorry i didnt cath you there) was that it would be a "cold day" because there is so much animosity between the companies.. sony has a very long history of pretty much saying "whatever" to the standard or what the consumer wants and trying to build thier own proprietary synergized network of sony based products which alot of times work only with other sony items. ..the big flaw in your theory about sony supporting everything and everything is that when Vegas was developing most of its outreaching things.. it wasnt owned by sony.. it was still sonic foundry. now it is sony owned. and things dont look good.
now perhaps the sony contact is on vacation.. perhaps his e-mail was just down .. for a couple weeks.... perhaps they just want to do it on their own and not have to deal with people like myself and the panasonic partnership program manager. perhaps they are just going underground with their efforts of support and dont want to spill the beans.. which would be stupid cause almost all the compition either has or is rumored to be coming out with support already, so at that point your best option is to let the customers know youll be doing it too. but more than likely what the developers may have wanted and been excited to do finally went up through the chain of command to get some decisions made and corporate came back with a resounding .."it'll be a cold day" e-mail. becuase my contacts did truely seem genuinley excited to add the support .. keep in mind they are former sonic foundry employees and arent yet fully sonyized in their way of thinking. did I ever mention that I personally know some former sonic foundry and now sony motion pictures media division employess ..
so you can say whatever you want about how it sounds to you, but this is how its going down as FACT. and since I , and im sure Jan is not about to post the correspondence e-mails publically. theres not going to be any evidnece untill youve sat around waiting for them to support the camera for a while.. a long ..long while. again .. never say never.. we may just see that "cold day" but as of right now.. all signs point to -> no. sony may support things that are easy to adapt to their own established workflow.. JVC HDV vs sony HDV.. and such.. because its easy.. and JVC although a sister company.. is not panasonic. and to support DVCPRO HD which is a panasonic only codec.. and implemented only in panasonic cameras.. is just not sony like. they wont even put 24p on their prosumer cams because they dont wasnt to messs with their own cine alta.. why? money is money.. sell alot of little prosumer cams vs a few cine altas.. and make the same money (..likely alot more) and have your name out there more as well. but they dont.. so after giving it some sony corporate lensed thought, I really dont see a reason why they would support their arch enemies camera systems and technology on their own editing app. .. but they might.. they might just put out the next version of vegas when its snowing on the sun. who knows.. all i can say is whats going down as of right now. anitive support doesnt look likely, but as mentioned above .. there are other ways to still use vegas to edit the HVX footage. cineform connect HD and DVfilmmaker, or the avid DV100 codec at about 8 fps, or others that may still pop up.
anyway.. you can call me a loser.. but dont call me a liar.
"....don't call me a liar"...
Not at all. I have no reason to do so, and if you took it that way, my sincere apologies. I'll suggest I meant more that Jan has been known to light up facts while leaving others in shadows. You may not know that I too, lived in Mad City for a while as a full time consultant to Sonic Foundry, and Jan and Sonic Foundry were friendly long ago.
For the record, none of the people in Madison are "Sony Pictures" employees. The company is Sony Media Software, and is part of the Sony Connect division. No relationship to SPD at all. There was, once. That's long, long over.
Sony Broadcast, who sell/distribute the professional cams, want every NLE to support them, and they work exceptionally hard to make that happen because that helps sell more cameras. Sony Media Software wants to work with every camera out there, whether it's Panny, Canon, Sony, JVC, whatever, because that helps them sell more software. In other words, in some ways, the two divisions are diametrically opposed. Additionally, Sony Electronics doesn't care about either of them. The sales team of the FX 1 competes very aggressively against the sales teams of the Z1. And Sony Electronics doesn't bundle Sony software on any product. Each division is charged with making revenue whether it competes with or hurts another division. That's something that Stringer has vowed to end, but so far, there's no sign of movement in that direction.
No one at Sony is going to tell you anything more than what's been posted by their engineers and VP on the Sony site, unless you've signed an NDA. And if you've signed an NDA, posting what you've posted would be a violation of the NDA.
In other words, without that NDA, you don't know much. And without knowing much, you don't know what's fact and what isn't. It's just a lot of (from my view, incorrect) conjecture.
Not at all. I have no reason to do so, and if you took it that way, my sincere apologies. I'll suggest I meant more that Jan has been known to light up facts while leaving others in shadows. You may not know that I too, lived in Mad City for a while as a full time consultant to Sonic Foundry, and Jan and Sonic Foundry were friendly long ago.
For the record, none of the people in Madison are "Sony Pictures" employees. The company is Sony Media Software, and is part of the Sony Connect division. No relationship to SPD at all. There was, once. That's long, long over.
Sony Broadcast, who sell/distribute the professional cams, want every NLE to support them, and they work exceptionally hard to make that happen because that helps sell more cameras. Sony Media Software wants to work with every camera out there, whether it's Panny, Canon, Sony, JVC, whatever, because that helps them sell more software. In other words, in some ways, the two divisions are diametrically opposed. Additionally, Sony Electronics doesn't care about either of them. The sales team of the FX 1 competes very aggressively against the sales teams of the Z1. And Sony Electronics doesn't bundle Sony software on any product. Each division is charged with making revenue whether it competes with or hurts another division. That's something that Stringer has vowed to end, but so far, there's no sign of movement in that direction.
No one at Sony is going to tell you anything more than what's been posted by their engineers and VP on the Sony site, unless you've signed an NDA. And if you've signed an NDA, posting what you've posted would be a violation of the NDA.
In other words, without that NDA, you don't know much. And without knowing much, you don't know what's fact and what isn't. It's just a lot of (from my view, incorrect) conjecture.
safarijoe
Well-known member
:huh: I'm not on anybodies list, I'm just one of the many Vegas users. I'm not interested in who shot John, I just want be able to edit my footage. If Vegas can do the job when the new HVX comes out, cool. If it can't, then I personally don't care who's fault it is or who dropped the ball. All I know is it won't meet my needs. As for plugins, why should I go through all that to keep Vegas? If they wanted my business, they'd sell what I need.:beer:
Daniel_Runyon
Well-known member
I just wish both companies (all companies, for that matter) would just cut the bullshit and tell us straight up, with no vagaries, what the hell the deal is and is going to be. If there's company politics keeping it from happening, then just come right out and say, "We are sorry, but company politics are keeping it from happening". Whatever the case actually is, just spill it out.
Spot said:
guess what the big sign out front reads.. when they boght the place .. it was sony pictures digital that made the purchase.. yes it has changed over the couple years (if that can be construed as a "lomg..long" time), but either way it has no bearing on what i had to say.. it doesnt matter what relationship sonic foundry and jan or you or anyone else used to have.. this is whats happening here and now. its nothing definitive, but to call it incorrect is just weird. all im saying is what factually happend. and ive drawn a conclusion that it doesnt look good based on what happend. people are entitled to their own opionion of the situation as they see fit,, just as you are. and just as i am. i dont personally see any reason for them to not even reply to the panasonic partnership manager if they were looking to develop support. but who knows.. maybe in them being so open armed and welcoming to anyone and everyone and wanting to support any and every camera. the division managers decided that the best way to develop support was to cut ties with the people trying to help them do so.
as i said before, i personally think sonic foundry wouldve jumped on it.. and the former employees did.. and then corporate thought otherwise. but that is speculation.. then again.. i was there.. nobody else was. and I also know that they didnt even seem to have a clue about the camera whatsover when i first approached them.. even though anyone in the industry who follows things wouldve heard about it. so if the division was looking to support new things as they came up they sure seemed to have dropped the ball on the most talked about camera coming to market. then after the engineers got all excited to support it once they actually knew it existed.. they probably brought it up and got shot down. i think they are very likely selectively told what to develop support for, and they never got word of the HVX untill i walked in the door. but whatever.. anyway .. im pretty much done with this. ive said what i had to report, and people can view it as they like. if the development manager contacts me later and says.. sorry i was out.. we were working hard on development and it looks to be in the next update. which i sincerely hope they do .. so that there is a low cost PC supprt chain officialy announced ..ill respectfully eat my words. ..which are simply.. "it does not look good at this time"
OK, guys; let's see about chilling out a little bit. No reason at all for personal flaming.
I'm on the Vegas ship until (and unless) it no longer fits my needs. I hope it will continue to do so for a long time to come.
I'm on the Vegas ship until (and unless) it no longer fits my needs. I hope it will continue to do so for a long time to come.
To be as clear as I can be...
Sony has already made their statement. The "bullshit" is coming from people who aren't satisfied or clear on the statement Sony Media Software have made. And that's all they're going to officially say. This morning, I spoke with two different VP's at Sony, both had the same story, and both of their stories are in line with what their engineering admin posted on Sony's site.
Aside from anything else, that's the best you're gonna get for now, I'd imagine.
Sony has already made their statement. The "bullshit" is coming from people who aren't satisfied or clear on the statement Sony Media Software have made. And that's all they're going to officially say. This morning, I spoke with two different VP's at Sony, both had the same story, and both of their stories are in line with what their engineering admin posted on Sony's site.
Aside from anything else, that's the best you're gonna get for now, I'd imagine.
Frizzle Fry
Well-known member
I write a fair amount of code, so I know this is question is a bit facetious, but how hard can it be to build this support into Vegas? And really, how long could it take if you have talented programmers? Would this kind of support warrant a new version, or just an upgrade? My guess is that they're going to surprise us, likely within six months of the release of the HVX.
that would be really nice indeed. i sincerely hope thay have just closed the communication bridge down on the issue for whatever reason, and are just working behind closed dorrs to put it in. people on the PC platform who dont want to shell out the high dollars to switch to a seemingly foreign editor like avid .. and are currently using vegas or PPRO would like to see some sort of naitive supprt offered for a lower cost PC editor. if PPRO doesnt get its much rumored support than well always have vegas. to be honest i would be sort of weird if sony supports panasonics high end HD codec when they dont even support their own.. but as it is lets just hope that spot is correct in that they simply do not have any politcial agenda to play out and realize the potential customer loss/gain through not implementing or implementing naitive dvcpro hd support.. and put it in with all the bells and whistles. and although i still think it looks bad at this time, fingers crossed this book reads differently than the cover.
thisiswells
Retired
Good question. It would be surprising to see DV100 in a $350 software program, but the exclusivity of our industry has already vanished. It's already in a 1K program. Who is to stop Sony from pushing it even lower? Everyone benefits from HVX users to VariCam users if they do. (shrugs) :undecidedFrizzle Fry said:
I'm going out on a limb here, but Spot is right. Publicly held companies have to very carefull about what they say in public.
Seems people are ignoring the relationship the Vegas folks have with Cineform.
Cineform has already stated they will support the HVX200, and I assume a future update to Vegas will add at least a basic version of the cineform codec in a free upgrade, or maybe with Vegas 7.
But I agree with Spot, this whole 'Sony better do this or else' is uncalled for.
I'm more pissed at them for not supporting DirectShow with their codecs and other stuff. One of the reasons I purchased Vegas was support for MS media interfaces. Now they are 2 generations behind and no word if they will catch up. When I talked to the rep from Cineform up in NYC, thats why the Vegas version of Cineform products isn't as advanced as the Premier version. Thats something to get legimitely upset about. IMHO
Joe C.
Seems people are ignoring the relationship the Vegas folks have with Cineform.
Cineform has already stated they will support the HVX200, and I assume a future update to Vegas will add at least a basic version of the cineform codec in a free upgrade, or maybe with Vegas 7.
But I agree with Spot, this whole 'Sony better do this or else' is uncalled for.
I'm more pissed at them for not supporting DirectShow with their codecs and other stuff. One of the reasons I purchased Vegas was support for MS media interfaces. Now they are 2 generations behind and no word if they will catch up. When I talked to the rep from Cineform up in NYC, thats why the Vegas version of Cineform products isn't as advanced as the Premier version. Thats something to get legimitely upset about. IMHO
Joe C.
Hey Joe, nice to see you here!
I sure wish DS was supported along w/ VFW too.
The bigger reason that Vegas isn't the same as Premiere for CineForm tho, isn't lack of DS support, it's that Vegas doesn't have a hardware application layer, which is how CineForm accesses the plugs in Premiere. Essentially, CineForm "fools" Premiere into thinking there is hardware there that doesn't actually exist. Vegas will likely never have a HAL.
I sure wish DS was supported along w/ VFW too.
The bigger reason that Vegas isn't the same as Premiere for CineForm tho, isn't lack of DS support, it's that Vegas doesn't have a hardware application layer, which is how CineForm accesses the plugs in Premiere. Essentially, CineForm "fools" Premiere into thinking there is hardware there that doesn't actually exist. Vegas will likely never have a HAL.
HD am I missing something.
HD am I missing something.
Am I missing something? Like everyone else I want a HVX. I just am having difficulty justifying it because many pieces of the puzzle are missing. I’d love to shoot HD to “future proof” my archive. First problem is even if I plan to shoot HD down sample to SD, I need a new computer. I don’t want to buy a brand new machine that is not HDCP ready, that is a WINDOWS VISTA machine for PC users as XP does not support HDCP. Then I have to wait for whatever? So I can edit with Vegas or buy a whole new NLE. For content aimed at straight to DVD a big enough installed base of HD-DVD/Blue Ray players is a long off from today’s zero base. Not to mention and hopefully I have this wrong but my understanding is a HDCP encryption key is $50,000. Right now it just seems for me waiting is a better plan that rushing out and buying the HVX until the support pieces fall in place.
HD am I missing something.
Am I missing something? Like everyone else I want a HVX. I just am having difficulty justifying it because many pieces of the puzzle are missing. I’d love to shoot HD to “future proof” my archive. First problem is even if I plan to shoot HD down sample to SD, I need a new computer. I don’t want to buy a brand new machine that is not HDCP ready, that is a WINDOWS VISTA machine for PC users as XP does not support HDCP. Then I have to wait for whatever? So I can edit with Vegas or buy a whole new NLE. For content aimed at straight to DVD a big enough installed base of HD-DVD/Blue Ray players is a long off from today’s zero base. Not to mention and hopefully I have this wrong but my understanding is a HDCP encryption key is $50,000. Right now it just seems for me waiting is a better plan that rushing out and buying the HVX until the support pieces fall in place.