Vegas MS9PP workflow question

Jeff Koenig

Jeff Koenig

OMFGeek Member
Greetings, all, and thanks in advance for reading and responding.

I have a general question about working with Vegas Movie Studio 9 Platinum Pro.

I've recently taken on a new project for a client interested in producing web video. Due to a combination of budget constraints, the client's personal preferences, and the practical limitations of video on the web, we'll be shooting on a DVX-100b and editing on Vegas MS9PP.

I've not personally used Vegas before, so while I'm looking forward to new experiences, I have some basic questions about the intended workflow.

The general idea is to shoot 24P 16:9 (squeeze) DV, edit on Vegas MS9PP on a Vista machine, and then output to the web as Flash encoded h.264.

Any Vegas pros see any problems with the above workflow? The client is purchasing the equipment for the project, and I'd hate to run into problems that could have been avoided before the money was spent. Your thoughts/comments/advice on the following would be greatly appreciated!

-24P 16:9 DV into Vegas
-Vegas MS9PP running on Vista
-Vegas outputting to h.264
-Vegas rendering as .FLV (if it can't, I own Flash)

Additionally, any thoughts about web based video encoding would be great. This is a new area for me, but solving the unique challenges of creating content specifically for the internet is bound to be interesting. It's different than what I'm used to, but I can't help thinking I'm finally catching up to the future of video production and distribution.

Thanks again for the help,

-Jeff
 
Well, as you can't edit in 24p, make sure you shoot 24p standard and not 24p Advanced.

You won't find an H.264 rendering option, but AVC/MPEG-4 are flavors of the same thing, as is Windows Media 9 and above.

Vegas doesn't render to FLV or F4V or SWF, either, so there you'd be outputting as DV or uncompressed and making it in Flash.
 
David Jimerson said:
Well, as you can't edit in 24p, make sure you shoot 24p standard and not 24p Advanced.

You won't find an H.264 rendering option, but AVC/MPEG-4 are flavors of the same thing, as is Windows Media 9 and above.

Vegas doesn't render to FLV or F4V or SWF, either, so there you'd be outputting as DV or uncompressed and making it in Flash.
Click to expand...

I could be wrong, and I know you usually use Pro, but I had read that they added 24p editing to MS8, so MS9 should have it, shouldn't it?

-Jeff
 
Vegas Movie Studio *can* edit and export 24p. However, it doesn't remove pulldown in some kinds of 24p versions. But if your footage is true 24p, without pulldown addition (meaning, progressive frame rate of 23.976), then Movie Studio/Platinum can edit it just fine.

Additionally, new to Platinum version 9, is the ability to fully customize the Sony AVC h.264 encoder and export with it any way you want.

You can't export in FLV though, but I have a tutorial here for that exact reason: http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/09/12/from-dvhdvavchd-to-flash-video/
 
As has been brought up in many threads, while you can set up a 24p timeline, that's useless with the DVX because you need other software to remove the pulldown from the footage in order to do it. By the time you buy that other software, you might as well just by the full version of Vegas.

Also, while the options to export as 24p exist, they're web-appropriate at best; you won't be able to make a quality 24p DVD with what you export.

So, I don't find Vegas Movie Studio adequate for working in 24p, particularly with the DVX or XL2 or DV-based cameras.
 
You might be right about these particular cameras, but we HV20/30 users use it with 24p after we have removed pulldown with a freeware way. There are about 6-7 avisynth utilities you can put together to remove pulldown, and then you are left with a true 24p file in an intermediate codec. And then that's perfectly usable with Movie Studio.
 
David and Eugenia, thank you both very much for taking the time to answer my questions!

I think I get it. MS9 only edits 24p as imbedded in a 59.94i DV stream; it can't reverse telecine the footage to remove the pulldown and edit in a 24 or 23.976 timeline. So, it doesn't really edit in 24 fps (sneaky marketers!) and any output to 24fps will look like doo-doo.

Ok, since I'm locked into a 60i stream, will Vegas give me better results for web output at 30p or 60i? I'm mostly worried that the additional web compression (even with the relatively forgiving h.264/Flash combo) will only enhance any interlace artifacts if I shoot 60i.

I know some people hate 30fps, but given the limitations I'm forced to work with here, is 30p the sweet spot between 24p at 29.97 and super compressed 60i?

Btw Eugenia, THANK YOU for that awesome tutorial link. I've done a ton of reading up on converting to flash h.264, and none of it was as helpful as the info in your blog!

-Jeff
 
THe point is, while there may be a way to make Movie Studio work with some type of 24p, it's not the right tool, any more than using a crescent wrench to pound in a nail would be.

When I pull the baseplate off one of my cams, more often than not, I'll go into the kitchen and grab one of the table knives (if my wife isn't looking :) ) to unscrew it. But that, too, isn't the right thing for the job, even though it works.

So yeah, there's a workflow which allows you to do some 24p work with Movie Studio. But that doesn't mean it's a tool which should be recommended for the job, even if it works in some cases or with a lot of extra steps.

Jeff, to maintain full resolution, I'd recommend 30p. If you're going to export to a smaller frame -- you know, 320x240 or something, then you're pretty much free to shoot however you want; any resolution loss from deinterlacing or transcoding will be negated by the smaller frame size.
 
>while there may be a way to make Movie Studio work with some type of 24p, it's not the right tool,

It's not the right tool if you want to do the pulldown removal in it. But if you already have it removed with another utility, OR, your 24p doesn't require pulldown removed, then it's a perfect tool, and every bit as good as Vegas Pro.

In fact, Vegas Pro does not remove pulldown for Canon's PF24 streams either, so if you use Platinum or Pro to edit it, it is one and the same.

I have discussed the issue with Sony engineers btw, there's not a difference between the two products as long as it's a pure 24p stream. For some cameras Pro has an advantage because it can remove pulldown, but for others, it's one and the same.
 
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