Vegas and DVCPRO HD

I'm not going to wait for Sony to stop with the politics...and allow a DVCPRO codec. I believe I heard a friend say a 3rd party DVCPRO codec may be available that works with Vegas. If I find it, I'll report back...if anyone else beats me to it...please let us know.

Good to see you here Spot.
Regards,
David
 
Yikes!

Just read my first post and realized I shouldn't write without getting more sleep! Up late this morning making space in Vegas for 50+ hours of a documentary coming aboard next week.

So...I should not have used the word "politics". That's not what I meant.....I meant the priority list of the Sony Engineers....

Starting over:

I don't expect Sony to have a DVCPRO codec out anytime soon. I don't think the market is there yet. By NAB 2006, there should be a good idea of the popularity of Panasonic's new HD camera and probably a new version of Vegas as well. That's when I would look for it.

In the meantime, I've found 2 external DVCPRO codecs on the Internet. One from MainConcepts and another unknown brand bundled in a large zip file (friend heard about it - I don't know anything more).

When things slow down I'll try them and see...as I have access to DVCPRO footage from this doc coming in.

Has anyone else tried either of these two?

Regards,

David
 
The only publicly-available DVCPRO-HD codec that I know of is the Avid one, which is freely downloadable and does work in Vegas (but only in .mov files). There's a free Matrox DVCPRO50 codec download available as well.

MainConcept makes a DVCPRO50 codec but it's $350. They also are apparently working on an HD version too.
 
Why doesn't Panasonic just make a dang codec and get it all over with? They made a DV codec so one would assume they are set up for codec creation.
 
If Panasonic does not release a Vegas DVCPRO-HD codec by the time the HVX hits the street, they will not deserve my business until they do.
 
Good point. It would seem that if you're going to release a proprietary recording codec that doesnt conform to a set standard (a la DV or HDV or whatever) you should release a publically available editing codec to allow the widest possible use of your recording tools. It really makes more sense than expecting Sony to write one, to me. Has Jan been asked about this? What would be their reason for not doing so?
 
Maybe they already have.

But why release a codec to enable editing of footage from a product that no one has yet?
 
Well, sure...but since "they" know "we're" sweating over this, why not just say..."relax...it's coming, we've got you covered". Neils dealings with Jan indicate them not having one.
 
GenJerDan said:
Maybe they already have.

But why release a codec to enable editing of footage from a product that no one has yet?
Click to expand...
I thought there were already cams out there using the DVCPRO-HD (100MHz) format?
 
Mac only? Or WIndows, too? And, if Windows, Vegas can't use the Avid codec? And, if Yes, can't it be had without the program?

I've been programming too long...everything is an IF statement....
 
If you read or watch this speech
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/corp/mm/index.html
from the chairman of Sony, I don't see how you could have any hope of quick support for DVproHD from Vegas. If the Sonic Foundry folks supported a Panny product they would be going against the official policy of Sony.

"Third, as we develop more sophisticated software capabilities, we'll use Sony's marriage of content and technology to create unique competitive advantages and compelling user experiences. "

The speech also talks about the HC1, HDV & Blu-Ray which will be in the Play Station 3 in spring '06.

The only thing I hold hope for is a Native (not .mov) DVproHD codec from a third party that will work with Vegas.
 
Even if someone delivers the codec, it still won't be a complete package. The Vegas developers chose to only implement the Sony proprietary version of the MXF file system, and completely ignored the Op-Atom format of MXF (used by Panasonic's P2, Ikegami's EditCam, Thomson/Grass Valley's Infinity, etc). Without direct MXF support, you'd still need to go through a separate file conversion process.

It's not a good trend. Sure they implemented direct timeline output of files to the Playstation Portable (and weren't we all waiting on pins and needles for that feature?) while leaving out Op-Atom support. Not an encouraging sign.
 
Ouch....so not even a solid codec will save us. I know nothing about it but would be curious to know, is there any chance that the Cineform folk will produce an app that would fix the conversion issue if someone makes a good codec? Give us a top 3 or 4 realistic scenario breakdown, if'n you don't mind.
 
Letter to Sony

Letter to Sony

I dug around and found a few email addresses and sent the following. If I get a reply, I will post it:



I'm writing on behalf of numerous Vegas users who have written, emailed and posted in Sony Media Software forums since April 2005 about support in Vegas 6 for the Panasonic HVX200 camera which records DVCPro-HD to MXF files.

Sony Media Software has never issued a statement about if and when support is coming. The critical issue is literally thousands of current Vegas users (myself included) switched to Vegas specifically because back in Sonic Foundry days, Vegas was aggresive in supporting the Panasonic DVX series of cameras. I had used Sonic Foundry products for years for audio and loved them, but it was the support for the DVX camera that made me switch to Sonic Foundry for video. Vegas has been a wonderful editing platform which I have used on numerous projects over the past 3 years.

But, what's critical is that the HVX will be for sale in the next few weeks and current Vegas users will be forced to switch to edit their footage. This should be unacceptable to Sony Media Software. Just based on two major sites, www.dvxuser.com (over 10,000 members, will probably several thousand that use Vegas currently) and www.dvinfo.net (nearly 20,000 members), the numbers speak for themselves.

The word on the street is that now since Sony bought Sonic Foundry, Vegas is now a compromised application and Sony will drag their feet on or not simply not support the HVX200 at all to protect sales of Sony HDV cameras. See this link for a sample http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=25562

Sony Media Software needs to correct this situation immediately or risk alienating tens of thousands of Vegas users worldwide. The perception that Sony Media Software is no longer agnostic but merely a tool for Sony Corporate to protect their own products is a big risk for Sony to take.

I, for one, despite being a registered owner for many years of Vegas, DV Architect, Acid, Sound Forge, Noise Reduction, Loops and more will not hesitate to dump Vegas if I can't edit my footage. I'm on the pre-order list for the HVX200 and expect my camera shortly. However, if I have to drop Vegas for Avid or other programs, that would probably lead to me dropping some or all the rest of my other Sony Media Software licenses at next upgrade cycle.

The HVX has been a well-known product for nearly 8 full months. It's time for an official response and more pointedly, for HVX200 support in Vegas ASAP. My sincere hope is that Sony Media Software does put the customer first and that we can expect an official response soon.

sincerely,
stephen van vuuren
filmmaker
greensboro, nc USA
 
Daniel_Runyon said:
Ouch....so not even a solid codec will save us. I know nothing about it but would be curious to know, is there any chance that the Cineform folk will produce an app that would fix the conversion issue if someone makes a good codec? Give us a top 3 or 4 realistic scenario breakdown, if'n you don't mind.
Click to expand...

There are a few options that spring to mind.

1) DVFilm Maker will convert the native .MXF file into a Quicktime DVCPRO-HD .mov, and then by using the Avid codec you will be able to edit the files in Vegas or Premiere Pro. The drawback is, you'll need a really, really, really, really, really, really fast system to get acceptable performance with it. My new Pentium M 760 laptop can manage about 3.5 fps on DVCPRO-HD files. So you'd need something like a dual-processor, dual-core, hyperthreaded supercomputer to make this a viable editing workflow.

2) DVFilm Maker will convert the native .MXF file into a Cineform CFHD .avi file, if you happen to have CineForm installed on your system. I don't know how fast this may be.

3) The FocusInfo File Converter utility will probably be updated to allow for converting DVCPRO-HD files into either .AVI or .MOV files. Same issues as 1) above for .MOV, and not of much value for .AVI until someone outputs a DirectX DV100 codec.

4) DVFilm Maker will probably be updated to output .AVI files, as soon as a codec exists for DirectX. It is widely speculated that MainConcept may develop such a codec, and hopefully others will as well.

5) We could ditch Premiere/Vegas and go to Canopus Edius or Avid Express Pro HD, both of which support native P2/MXF import and native DV100 editing.

6) We could jump ship to Apple/FCP, although as I understand it FCP doesn't edit MXF's either, you have to import/convert them to Quicktime files.

7) We could hope that Pinnacle finishes its development with Liquid, which already has some 24p support and some MXF import capability; if they add DVCPRO-HD support they may offer a complete end-to-end native editing solution. That'd probably not arrive before Liquid V.8 comes out, but hey...

If I had my 'druthers, I'd rather that Vegas just implement Op-Atom MXF support and then I'll just buy the MainConcept codec if/when it ever gets released. I'd rather spend $300 on a codec than spend $1700 on Avid Express or $2500 on Edius (with the Varicam Option Pack, P2 Option Pack, and Codec Option Pack), or $4,000 to buy a Mac and FCP suite, plus the three or four weeks it'll take to convert over and become proficient in the new editor. I'd rather just pay the little price, get the codec and be done with it.

I don't see Vegas building their own DVCPRO-HD codec, as I doubt their Sony bosses would let them devote such energy to a specific competitor's proprietary tech. However, MXF Op-Atom isn't specific, at least three different manufacturers are using it, so it should be a more reasonable thing to expect them to implement.
 
Perhaps if Sony can't get their S...it together..perhaps Panasonic will create a universal codec themself and sell it and in turn take the money away from sony and control the Vegas platform's HD marketshare themselves. Wouldn't that just wake up those "bakatare" (Japanese for stupid) hard heads up for once. I see another corporate shakedown if they don't get it together soon. Remember it just happened 3 months ago in TOKYO...it could happen again. They already mess up with the ipod debacle...and this may be the second stupid business move within the last 12 months. PS the head of Sony Corp. Howard Stringer has already been caught putting rootkit virus kernal on the Sony CD's and now this... what a joke.

http://www.corante.com/mooreslore/archives/2005/11/15/sonys_crocodile_tears.php
 
As an update, for those following this thread, Canopus has repackaged their software into a much more comprehensive bundle: the Canopus Edius Broadcast edition carries a $999 suggested retail price and includes all the various option packs.

And I've now seen Edius, Avid, and FCP in action with DVCPRO-HD data. I am no longer content to even toy with workarounds -- real, native, high-performance editing is possible with today's systems.
 
It's difficult to stay abreast of an NLE that doesn't even have its own forum on this site. Is it time for Edius to have it's own forum here?
 
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