Vegas 9 pro - cannot figure this out

[dlevens]

Tools: Sony Vegas 9.0c Pro 64 bit
OS: Windows 7 64 bit

Source: Canon HV30 HDV 1440x1080 60i
Goal: Fix white balance, trim out a section and render preserving as much possible original quality.

I cannot seem to figure out how to preserve the same quality as my source after doing two very minor edits in Sony Vegas. I cut out the section of the video I wanted to keep using the timmer and then dragged the trimmed section into the time line and added the FX Color corrector. I then fixed white balance using color corrector which at the beginning of my video I took a shot of my white/Grey/Black cards. Clicking high - complementary and then clicked white, then low - complementary and clicked black, then mid - complementary and clicked grey and this appears to have fixed white balance.

I am now stuck on how to render this video while keeping as much quality as possible. The goal for these videos is to store them on my local 6TB NAS box which I then stream to my TV (60" Plasma Pioneer Kuro) I can either stream to the TV media center directly or can purchase a popcorn hour or similar device.

I can view the original M2T files I shot on my Canon HV30 on my TV now and they are super sharp with lots of detail but are washed out and the white balance is way out of wack. Plus my TVs 100 mbit connection or the internal decoder cannot handle the full quality HDV as it starts to stutter after about 10 seconds.

My best attempt so far was using the attached screen shots settings:

My project settings are
HDV 1080-60i (1440x1080, 29.970 fps)
Rendering quality set to best

I tried rendering as
Mode CBR (Two-pass)
Windows Media Video 9
High Definition (1440x1080)
Pixel aspect ration (1.333 HD 1080)
FPS 29.970
100 for sharpest

20 Mbps bit rate
video rendering quality best

The WMV white balance looks great the color saturation is nice now, but the sharpness and detail is nothing close to the original HDV.

Is there any way to get more detail out of WMV?
Should I render as m2t and if so what settings would give me the same quality as the source and still use smart rendering so as not to have to recode every frame?

My TV can play 12gb TS files with no issues, but even if my output from vegas has issues on my TV I plan to get a popcorn hour or something similar that can play huge mkv and m2t without issues.

If you can help point me in the right direction I would greatly appreciate it. By the way, I really love this Sony Vegas Pro software, I was really hesitant to spend so much, but many hours on you tube watching how to videos has really paid off.

Dennis

 

[PerroneFord]

Windows media is a delivery codec. Suitable for BluRay, or web video. It's not meant for mastering quality. If you want to save a master, use one of the .AVI codecs like Sony HD. There are other options for lossless encoding, but this is built-in and free. They will likely NOT play back nicely on your computer because they are going to be very high bit rate, and very large files.

 

[dlevens]

Windows media is a delivery codec. Suitable for BluRay, or web video. It's not meant for mastering quality. If you want to save a master, use one of the .AVI codecs like Sony HD. There are other options for lossless encoding, but this is built-in and free. They will likely NOT play back nicely on your computer because they are going to be very high bit rate, and very large files.

Thanks for the quick reply, if my goal is make these files still playable on computer and HD TV then is there something that will look close to the original m2t files? Even though my TV chokes on the m2t files, my computer plays them fine and from what I hear the latest popcorn hour can play them with no issues. If there is a way to fix the white balance and do some trims and then render or save back to m2t keeping the same quality that would be as close to source quality as I can get. I just am not sure how to do that.

Dennis

 

[dlevens]

Update

Update

After some further research it appears it is not recommended to edit m2t files directly in Sony Vegas. Instead I need to first convert the footage into a good intermediary codec, and everyone recommends Cineform neo scene. But I am tapped out, already spent a bundle getting to this point.

So if I have Sony Vegas 9 Pro, what is the best format I should convert to (that comes with the product) so that I can make my color correction and trims. Then what format should I render to that will preserve as much of the original quality as possible but still be playable on my computer and popcorn hour or similar device?

Dennis

 

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

If you just want to watch the videos on TV, then it doesn't matter if you lose some quality. From 2 meters away most people can't even tell the difference between 720p and 1080p, let along if you export in an intermediate or a delivery codec.

You're over-thinking the whole thing.

You should just capture with Vegas, setup the right project properties, edit, export back to .m2t 1080i at 25mbps, or WMV 720p at 10 mbps VBR, get some popcorn and orange juice, and sit back and enjoy your movie. There's nothing more to it. "Not losing any quality at all" is only reserved either for exported .m2t files that have not been changed in any way (you used plugins, so you couldn't use "smart rendering" to not lose quality), or for *archiving* using intermediate codecs. There are no intermediate codecs that playback with most video playback devices for example, e.g. the PS3 or the AppleTV. Intermediate codecs are only used for editing/archiving, but at the end you export at a delivery codec.

So in your case, you don't even need an intermediate codec, since the .m2t file format is perfectly supported by Vegas. You edit, and you export in a LOSSY format. Even Hollywood movies lose quality off of the original film when transferred to Blu-Ray. It's part of how it is.

 

[dlevens]

Thanks Eugenia,

I tried the highest quality setting for WMV and did notice a large difference in quality when watching the clip on my TV versus the m2t file unedited. The WMV even at 20Mbps and 100 sharpest was still lacking a lot of detail, even from 8 feet away on my couch (I have a 60" Pioneer Kuro Plasma). Instead of seeing nice blades of grass and detail in the beach sand scenes it was very smooth, too smooth, compared to the untouched m2t file. Problem is my TV can only show about 10 seconds of the unedited m2t file and the colors of sand, sky etc are way off.

So I am hoping editing and exporting to m2t as you also suggested may help with this. To render back to m2t which should I use:

mainconcept Mpeg-2 or mainconcept HDV (and should I specify video format NTSC?)
OR
Sony AVC?

Dennis

 

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Main Concept HDV is m2t mpeg2. As for NTSC, it depends if your camera is NTSC or PAL.

 

[Ducatimark]

I encode my HDV files as WMV all the time, and you do get that washed out look if you don't tweak them first in Vegas.

Suggest adding a curves filter and a sharpness filter and you'll probably get back 99% of what you are looking for.

I use AAV color lab for correcting such footage to really get the pop back. It is a free plug-in available by searching on the web. It has become one of my favorite tools. Make sure you explore all the tabs in the plug-in. Lot's of great tools in one plug-in.

 

[dlevens]

Thanks, I just downloaded AAV and will play with it and compare to my current testing. At this point the highest quality and closest to the source HDV footage was to encode to MainConcept Mpeg-2 HDV 1080-60i 25mbps

When comparing the redered footage from Vegas to the source m2t, the quality was pretty much identical, and the fixed white balance and saturation made for an outstanding clip.

The next best quality was MainConcept AVC/AAC 25mpbs MP4

I have attached the settings I used for both.

Also for a 38 second test clip the sizes of the files were:
100mb = MPEG-2 .m2t
95mb = AAV .mp4
101mb = .wmv

I am very interested in the settings you use for color curves and sharpen for your WMV, so far I tried .345 sharpen and the default increase contrast for color curves but the clip has way too much contrast now. Curious what settings you have found work best.

Dennis