Using HMI and Tungsten together?

[Granville]

I recently purchased a Blu line 650 and an Alzo 800. I tested the Alzo indoors during the day and it seemed to throw some strong light but when I tested the Blu line and added the Alzo in with CT Full orange gel it looked like a 60 watt GE. It did not keep up with the Fresnel even as a fill (this was at night). I tried to CT blue the fresnel and it went way blue (while WB might correct things somewhat, the blue light has the potential to cause psychological damage to the actors. I woild much prefer to CTO, but the output of the Alzo seems to dim drastically.

Maybe there is a problem with the Alzo?

Should I avoid mixing these lights?

I am new at lighting my own stuff .

 

[hemophilia]

Well first off, what do you think of the build quality of the bluline? Those are the new kids on the block and we're all very curious as to how they're stacking up.

As for your problem:

Keep in mind that the Alzo CLAIMS to put out 800w-equivalent of tungsten. But if I'm not mistaken, those are only 150w bulbs in there, and even accounting for the extra efficiency of a HMI/HID bulb, it's not really getting up to 800 level... more like 400-500. A full CTO will usually lose you one stop... putting you down to around a 250w tungsten, which will certainly be weaker than the 650... but in my very approximate estimation should be just over a stop darker. It shouldn't feel like a 60w GE.

Conversely, there is a greater light loss when gelling tungsten to daylight-- generally about 2 stops. So really the 650 gelled to match the color temp of your Alzo should only put out around 160w-worth of light. Which shouldn't feel like much next to that Alzo (would be about two-stops darker).

Actors should be fine under "blue" light. That's what daylight is after all. I assure you no psychological damage will occur, quite the opposite. People buy daylight-balanced lights to help depression known as Seasonal Affective Disorder.

Yes maybe there is a problem with the Alzo, if it really is getting down to the level of a 60w household bulb when there's a full-CTO on it, maybe something is screwy.

You shouldn't have to avoid mixing these lights, you should just have to be aware of the color temps, and know what gelling them is going to do in terms of light-loss. They're different tools, and very often there could be situations where you might want to use them together. Remember, mixing color temps can be used to great effect. And for example you could use a 1/2 CTO or CTB to get the lights closer, whilst retaining some [subtler] color variety in the shot.

<whew> that ended up being a long answer. I hope it helps.

-Kevin

 

[Cool Lights]

One of my customers got the "Alzo 800" which is a terribly misleading name for it. No way is a 140w edison base metal halide going to put out 16,000 lumens which is what you might expect from 800w of tungsten lighting at its most efficient level. Anyway, he said a 200w light bulb right next to the Alzo seemed brighter. A G12 base pro-level metal halide 5300K puts out about 13,000 lumens at best (like a 650w tungsten at 20 lumens per watt). The screw in kinds never come up to that level though and are always a bit weaker. I haven't seen the reflector on the unit either but I imagine that also contributes to the weakness. It's probably not a great reflector.

 

[Finding Fellini]

The Alzo 800 is an open-faced "HMI". The manufacturer lists it as 800, which would normally indicate wattage not wattage equivalence. HMI's are normally much punchier than tungsten lamps. For example, a 1200 PAR is approximately equivalent to 3K tungsten depending on the lens.
That aside, I would take the advice of mixing color temperature, doing so only when intended as well as playing with 1/2 and 1/4 CT gels. I would use my lights based on what they give me rather than the logic of their nomenclature.
An excellent book on lighting:

http://www.amazon.com/Set-Lighting-...5661405?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180190470&sr=8-1

 

[PaPa]

One of my customers got the "Alzo 800" which is a terribly misleading name for it. No way is a 140w edison base metal halide going to put out 16,000 lumens which is what you might expect from 800w of tungsten lighting at its most efficient level. Anyway, he said a 200w light bulb right next to the Alzo seemed brighter. A G12 base pro-level metal halide 5300K puts out about 13,000 lumens at best (like a 650w tungsten at 20 lumens per watt). The screw in kinds never come up to that level though and are always a bit weaker. I haven't seen the reflector on the unit either but I imagine that also contributes to the weakness. It's probably not a great reflector.

When are you guys coming out with your hard light fixture?

When the money comes in im ready to order some of your stuff but im curious about this hard light fixture. Will it be daylight balanced?

 

[hemophilia]

One of my customers got the "Alzo 800" which is a terribly misleading name for it. No way is a 140w edison base metal halide going to put out 16,000 lumens which is what you might expect from 800w of tungsten lighting at its most efficient level. Anyway, he said a 200w light bulb right next to the Alzo seemed brighter.

Thanks Mr. Cool Lights-- always informed answers. And if that's the case, it sounds like there isn't anything wrong with his Alzo at all aside from some deceptive advertising.

Although what would it matter if a globe is an edison base or otherwise? I thought the main reason edisons aren't used much is b/c of their size?

 

[PaPa]

so realistically speaking, how much is that Alzo 2000 actually putting out, daylight-wise?

 

[Granville]

Well first off, what do you think of the build quality of the bluline? Those are the new kids on the block and we're all very curious as to how they're stacking upl

So far the Bluline seems like a good value. The lens is smooth, the yoke is robust and it locks down as it should. I tend to be skeptical about things offered at a reasonable price for fear of ending up with another piece of "stuff" shaped like a tool instead of a real tool that performs and lasts. My first impressions of the Bluline are positive.

 

[Granville]

Actors should be fine under "blue" light. That's what daylight is after all. I assure you no psychological damage will occur, quite the opposite. People buy daylight-balanced lights to help depression known as Seasonal Affective Disorder.

I knew I should have put a smiley thing after this comment . I was kidding but I appreciate your earnestness in addressing this comment.

 

[Granville]

Thanks to all for your helpful information. Now if I can just figure out how to get multiple quotes into one reply . . .

 

[Cool Lights]

Thanks Mr. Cool Lights-- always informed answers. And if that's the case, it sounds like there isn't anything wrong with his Alzo at all aside from some deceptive advertising.

Although what would it matter if a globe is an edison base or otherwise? I thought the main reason edisons aren't used much is b/c of their size?

That's a good question. Actually, I didn't mean it as you took it. Here's what I'm talking about. There are two kinds of these lamps. One kind has a screw in base with either an Edison or Mogul base, the other kind has a more "professional" type base like a G12, G22, GX9.5, and even some double-ended pro type solutions, etc. For some reason, the ones with the pro bases seem to have more serious specs too. The ones with the screw in bases all seem to be a bit weaker in lumen output than an equivalent wattage model with the "serious" base. The other problem is that the ones with the screw in base are always a bit larger than their counterpart with the ceramic plug in bases like the G12.

There are exceptions to the lumen output in some being more like the pro solutions but the size problem is always a factor. I've never seen a small screw-in bulb of the size of my plugin 150's for example. And you can forget the 1000w models. They are absolutely HUGE. It would be hard to make a serious studio light with one of those in my opinion. The size is so huge and the lumen output is terrible, it's why I don't consider most of the screw in ones as a great solution. The closest thing to a good screw-in base type is the Iwasaki 400w bulb but its still very large.

 

[Cool Lights]

so realistically speaking, how much is that Alzo 2000 actually putting out, daylight-wise?

Well, they've got 3 150w screw in bulbs in that unit. They claim 12,500 lumens per bulb. Very optimistic! A 650w tungsten puts out a bit more than that (13000) if its running 20 LPW. So, would it be more appropriately named the ALZO 650? I really don't know where they got the "800" at. A tungsten 800 would put out 16,000 lumens at its best efficiency. No way are they even close to that with the specs they list for each bulb. That company is really unscrupulous.

Anyway, so if their specs are right then its 12,500 * 3 = 37,500 Lumens but it really seems doubtful they obtain that based on user reports so far. I remember Shawneous has one of the ballast / bulb combinations. Maybe he'll see this post and chime in with an opinion.

 

[Cool Lights]

When are you guys coming out with your hard light fixture?

When the money comes in im ready to order some of your stuff but im curious about this hard light fixture. Will it be daylight balanced?

Here's what we have so far.

150w fresnel. Ballast will be silent/electronic model attached to the yoke. Still finalizing the fixture choice. I wanted to use the "blueline" model that you guys are salivating over (which I can freely get here in China), but I think its just a hair too small for the G12 base 150w bulb I'm using. It would take a lot of rework to make it happen. I'm going to the stage lighting fair in Beijing Next week and hope to find another similar small fresnel that's suitable. Choice of tungsten (3000K) or daylight (5300K) bulb. CRI will be 85. Lots of replacement bulb choices out there for this G12 package type.

575w par. Coming along nicely--almost finished. For the moment, only 6000K color temp. CRI 85. Hope to have a choice of electronic or magnetic ballast. I showed a picture of the fixture at one point a couple of months ago. Really attractive cast aluminum model with barndoors and gelframe, choice of 3 lenses. You should be able to use either my bulb in this fixture or one from Phillips, Osram or GE. We can do HOT RESTRIKE :thumbup: with this one...

1200w par - still under design. We have some heat problems I need to solve before I feel good about releasing it. If I solve the heat problem, the bulb will last a lot longer. The bulb I've got is a 6000K model CRI 85. Can't do hot restrike with this bulb but I am sure we can find one that you can though. I'm having a better magnetic ballast designed for it too with the hot restrike capability. An electronic 1200w / 575w is available but is pricey (although not as pricey as the pro ones out there now!) so we may hold off on that one until I test the market and see what it wants.