Using a BlackMagic camera

M

morgan_moore

Major Contributor
Didnt know where to post this as BMCuser is apparently bust.

I have a possible job where BMraw is required.

I have to take some shots of beautiful spots (beaches mountains) for an art project - will be 10-15 mins locked off on a tripod.

BM raw is required.

I guess I have two options..
Rent Ursa mini
Buy BMC 4k (or 6k?) pocket.

Is there a difference in file /

- I will, due to the slow nature of the shots, be able to handle externl ND and external audio. I also wont need Hfr.

It occurs to me that my FS7 might be better as it has an AA filter and will not moire on detailed subject matter.
 
There's a difference in compression options and the image quality/perception from any sensor/processing differences (who'd really notice?), but no differences in how you would work with the .braw files.

You can rent a Pocket 4K for around $50 a day (plus shipping/taxes if applicable).
 
morgan_moore said:
I have to take some shots of beautiful spots (beaches mountains) for an art project - will be 10-15 mins locked off on a tripod.
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Glad to hear someone has at least one COVID-proof booking! I returned from a shoot in Barcelona to the Uk a couple of weeks back (phew), and just shot what will likely be the last thing for a while on a farm in Sussex today, but everything else is drying up pretty quick!

Sounds like an Ursa rental to me. Unless your having to hike up said mountains, or the budget simply doesn’t justify the extra costs.

Interested to see what you come out with if it’s shareable as a private link...

J
 
Whatever you decide to rent/buy, make sure it has what you're looking for (Blackmagic RAW) as some of the older or non-updated cameras may still have CinemaDNG.
 
BRAW seems to present LESS moire type artefacts in the RAW files.

You should specify which Ursa mini.

Ursa Mini (4K global shutter, base iso 400 not much DR - DOESN'T DO BRAW)
Ursa Mini 4.6K (Dual gain sensor, base ISO of 800 and Alexa like DR - DOESN'T DO BRAW)
Ursa Mini Pro (Same as the Ursa Mini 4.6K but now with internal ND filters - HAS BRAW)
Ursa Mini Pro G2 ( same as the UMP but, double the integration speed so nearly global shutter performance from a rolling shutter, 300 FPS top speed, can use low cost SSD media - HAS BRAW)

The 6K has a bit more res, but not great DR and less integration time. And does BRAW and low cost SSD media

JB
 
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JB
Thanks is most helpful to claify the other ursas differences as it looks like I can shave a few $$ by getting one of them but only the right one.

Im sure I can calculate the but shooting highest quality how much card is 20min of best quality?

WHat about that old lump? Any good?

S

edit the ones that doint do Braw - they do another kind?
 
morgan_moore said:
JB
Thanks is most helpful to claify the other ursas differences as it looks like I can shave a few $$ by getting one of them but only the right one.

Im sure I can calculate the but shooting highest quality how much card is 20min of best quality?

WHat about that old lump? Any good?

S

edit the ones that doint do Braw - they do another kind?
Click to expand...


At Q0, which is a constant bitrate sort of about 2:1ish, I'm finding I get about 13 mins at 4.6K on a 128 Gb card.

If you go to Q5 which is what a lot of people are using and getting great results from that too and the data rate is more like 6:1.

Not sure what the "old lump" is ?

They all do ProRes, and 4.6K ProRes 444 is also very very good.

The one's that don't do BRAW are cDNG, either lossless compressed or 3:1 compressed. Some would say that cDNG is "sharper", but in my view this is often false colour moire and aliasing that's mistaken for sharpness.

Only cDNG can be opened in everything and compressed DNG can only really be used in Resolve. 4.6K lossless compressed overwhelms most users systems( bet you can't play it) and won't play back in realtime without a lot of GPU's and some very very serious hard drives. Another good reason to go BRAW.

JB
 
John Brawley said:
BRAW seems to present LESS moire type artefacts in the RAW files.

You should specify which Ursa mini.

Ursa Mini (4K global shutter, base iso 400 not much DR - DOESN'T DO BRAW)
Ursa Mini 4.6K (Dual gain sensor, base ISO of 800 and Alexa like DR - DOESN'T DO BRAW)
Ursa Mini Pro (Same as the Ursa Mini 4.6K but now with internal ND filters - HAS BRAW)
Ursa Mini Pro G2 ( same as the UMP but, double the integration speed so nearly global shutter performance from a rolling shutter, 300 FPS top speed, can use low cost SSD media - HAS BRAW)

The 6K has a bit more res, but not great DR and less integration time. And does BRAW and low cost SSD media

JB
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Very helpful, thank you!
 
John Brawley said:
At Q0, which is a constant bitrate sort of about 2:1ish, I'm finding I get about 13 mins at 4.6K on a 128 Gb card.

If you go to Q5 which is what a lot of people are using and getting great results from that too and the data rate is more like 6:1.
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On paper, both the Q0 (880-2192 Mbps) and Q5 (216-624 Mbps) are formally variable data rate formats. The Q meaning constant Quality.

But maybe in real life the recorded result is less variable than the numbers would suggest?

Like many others, I did my own tests and quickly decided that Q5 was a winner. For me it was a question of looking at the image and looking at the data collected. Being active on a few forums, it's clear that there are users who can't get enough of data, no matter what. No right or wrong here, but it is wise to test for oneself and not listen too much to "recommendations".

At the end of the day—racing to higher resolutions and more data—I like to remind myself that it's still moving images with a shutter of around 1/48-1/50 for normal motion. Even [the shutter speeds of] stage one HFR of 48-60 fps won't grind the action in single frames to a complete halt.

Sam, pick up a P6K for yourself as a test bench.
 
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If you need DR on par with your FS7, get the UMP (the p6k is one stop below that, the p4k is even lower, maybe another stop)
If you're going to hike with it, don't get the UMP because it's HEAVY
Beware of the batteries if you get a p6k, the internal ones really fly (the p4k is better but I still need at least 6 for a full day of shooting; no idea about the UMP)
 
The lump is the ursa (not ursa mini?) very cheap ?

LIke all jobs its a 'shall I buy' (p4k,p6k?) or rent the best tool.

S
 
BMPC, big URSA and URSA Mini 4K all share the same sensor.

There's V1 and V2 of the URSA. 4K/120p for V2. DR doesn't change.
 
morgan_moore said:
The lump is the ursa (not ursa mini?) very cheap ?

LIke all jobs its a 'shall I buy' (p4k,p6k?) or rent the best tool.

S
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Ursa is the same sensor as the Ursa Mini 4K though many claimed that the Ursa Mini was somehow a better image. There was a V2 version of the Ursa that was the same sensor running at slightly higher frame rates.

They're all the same as the Ursa Mini 4K. Not a great deal of dynamic range. Not great DR. Base iso is 400. No BRAW. Also no software updates for a long time. Only thing is that it's cool for high speed GS and a I still often see them on steadicams as a training camera. For all the **** it got for being big and heavy, it's about the same weight as as Alexa Classic. I saw a prototype version that was about half the weight, same body design made of magnesium that they made later Ursa Mini's out of, but BMD shelved it. Ursa flopped big time and they didn't want to keep the development going for a camera that no one was buying.

JB
 
We're shooting a doco series on the Blackmagics at the moment, I've been given a Pocket 6K, my second cam op is on an Ursa Mini Pro and our occasional 3rd camera is the Pocket 4k + Speedbooster.

I've been impressed so far. The dual-iso function on the Pocket Cameras is fantastic, colours are nice across the board and dynamic range is good too. Really loving the menu interface as well, it's SO much simpler than most of the Japanese cameras.

From our tests it was REALLY hard to spot much of difference between the cameras' raw files at different compression ratios. We've settled on 8:1 for the bulk of our footage, with 12:1 for static interviews. For a simpler piece like this art one you're doing I wouldn't be too fussed about storage, and just suggest recording maximum quality. Higher bitrates ALWAYS help for rendering high frequency details like leaves on trees.

The biggest issue I've found with using the pocket camera is simply having to re-rig it for different types of shooting. If production would have sourced the parts I'd asked for (Arri dovetail baseplates to go across all three of our cameras, and a few other bits). I could have set it into a more conventional rigging that I could easily move between handheld, monopod and tripod, but that hasn't quite happened.
 
Grug said:
We're shooting a doco series on the Blackmagics at the moment, I've been given a Pocket 6K, my second cam op is on an Ursa Mini Pro and our occasional 3rd camera is the Pocket 4k + Speedbooster.

I've been impressed so far. The dual-iso function on the Pocket Cameras is fantastic, colours are nice across the board and dynamic range is good too. Really loving the menu interface as well, it's SO much simpler than most of the Japanese cameras.

From our tests it was REALLY hard to spot much of difference between the cameras' raw files at different compression ratios. We've settled on 8:1 for the bulk of our footage, with 12:1 for static interviews. For a simpler piece like this art one you're doing I wouldn't be too fussed about storage, and just suggest recording maximum quality. Higher bitrates ALWAYS help for rendering high frequency details like leaves on trees.

The biggest issue I've found with using the pocket camera is simply having to re-rig it for different types of shooting. If production would have sourced the parts I'd asked for (Arri dovetail baseplates to go across all three of our cameras, and a few other bits). I could have set it into a more conventional rigging that I could easily move between handheld, monopod and tripod, but that hasn't quite happened.
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BM has a great little eco system of cameras, that match fairly well. Sony could have this, an in many ways, with slog, they kind of do.

I like the idea of having multiple lower cost bodies to compliment each other and the flagship camera. Like even just having a 5D and a 1d to at least have a back up. However, they also do different things well.

Right at this moment, Black Magic has one of the better eco systems.
 
The Production 4k and Ursa 4k and Ursa mini 4k are not viable options anymore, if you ask me: the p4k has a much better image. That old cmosis sensor was not great (well, it was global shutter IIRC, but the DR was pretty bad).
 
The image quality was actually very good; regular people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between it and any other Blackmagic camera. It was just the very weak DR that limited the camera outside or in very bright areas where professional camera nerds knew what to look for. Colors and quality were gorgeous.
 
Black magic has been doing well in the SOOC sort of way. Those blind tests, BM often scores hire than Arri. Arri is more neutral than BM, so BM’s little bit ‘extra’ seems to work more effectively in a dry blind test of someone in a boring flat light scenario.

And for users coming from mirroless, i am sure Braw blows their mind, and they associate that image quality bump with “RAW”, rather than lower compression+higher bit rate.
 
Samuel H said:
The Production 4k and Ursa 4k and Ursa mini 4k are not viable options anymore, if you ask me: the p4k has a much better image. That old cmosis sensor was not great (well, it was global shutter IIRC, but the DR was pretty bad).
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Yeah it’s funny how it goes.

It had some die hard fans. When the 4.6k first dropped, the new version of the dual gain sensor that was the same sensor family as the OG pocket and BMCC, a lot of people were saying the 4K had better “mojo”

All I remember was DR that was pretty limiting and a low ISO that had no wriggle room.

When I first started using the new P4K I was expecting similar DR because the on paper specs were similar but the P4K is a lot more useable than the OG4k

JB
 
coming from mirrorless i am sure Braw blows their mind

Ive got an FS7 (and a BM micro - which IMO has limited DR)

THe FS7 is not sexy but then does work! DR is pretty wide and there is never any moire.
 
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