Understanding 24P help!

[DP StrangeLove]

Ok, it seems like everytime I believe I have it all figured out and under-control, I hear something else that completely destructs my understanding of 24p and 24pa.


I am currently editing a project that was shot in NTSC 24p, regular pulldown.
I set up my capture and timeline for 24p.
Once captured everything plays great, no rendering needed. My clips that were captured are playing at 30 frames, and when I put them in the timeline, turning them into 24p, is this where the pulldown is removed?

1.) Why is that once my clips (shot at 24p) are captured they immediately play 30 frames in the browser? Is pulldown automatically applied in FCP on capture?

2.) How do I capture these clips at 24p, or I guess, how do I remove the pulldown? Is this done simply by putting them into a 24 frame timeline sequence?

3.) Why is it not advised to edit 24p footage (regular 2:3 pulldown) on a 24 frame timeline?
Would I be wrong to edit regular 24p footage on a 24 frame timeline?
I would rather be editing the footage to how it is going to look in the final output rather then relying on the pulldown that is applied from whatever device is outputting the video.


4.) Why does my timeline need rendering when I drag my clips from the browser that play at 30 frames/sec (I assume the pulldown is added) and drag them into a timeline sequence that I set to be at 29.97 need rendering and then when I set-up a 24 frame timeline, and drop those same clips in they do not need any rendering at all?

It would seem the opposite. When I drop those clips into the 24 frame timeline, isn't it needing to remove the 2:3 pulldown and require a render?
Why do my clips need rendering when I drop them into a 29.97 timeline?

aghhh,see making myself more confused....

 

[CaptainMench]

Wow -- we've got issues...

I am currently editing a project that was shot in NTSC 24p, regular pulldown.
I set up my capture and timeline for 24p.

No -- this is the root of your problem. DVX's 24p IS 30 frames a second... leave it at that right now. When you put it in the 24fps timeline FCP is doing it's best to convert it... hence the render. No, the pulldown was NOT removed. And capturing it in 24 was a BAD idea - more on that later... Ok...

1.) Why is that once my clips (shot at 24p) are captured they immediately play 30 frames in the browser? Is pulldown automatically applied in FCP on capture?

Remember DVX's 24p IS!! 30fps. Pulldown is applied IN THE CAMERA. Yes, the shutter/CCD clicked away at 24fps, but since the tape cannot hold 24fps it ADDED the PULLDOWN of 3.2 (standard) to the images BEFORE going to tape that makes it 30fps.

2.) How do I capture these clips at 24p, or I guess, how do I remove the pulldown? Is this done simply by putting them into a 24 frame timeline sequence?

The reason for DVX's 24p (I keep saying that so you won't get confused by 24fps) is to generate a FILM LOOK for you. If you really wanted to EDIT in 24fps you would have shot 24pA or still 30fps, but this time with a cadence of 2.3.3.2 -- a much easier cadence to REMOVE in FCP. In fact, FCP can remove it on the fly during capture.

2.) 3.) Why is it not advised to edit 24p footage (regular 2:3 pulldown) on a 24 frame timeline?
Would I be wrong to edit regular 24p footage on a 24 frame timeline?
I would rather be editing the footage to how it is going to look in the final output rather then relying on the pulldown that is applied from whatever device is outputting the video.

Again, the root of your problem is above. I answered most of this... the rest you're just gonna have to take for granted that your thinking is flawed.

4.) Why does my timeline need rendering when I drag my clips from the browser that play at 30 frames/sec (I assume the pulldown is added) and drag them into a timeline sequence that I set to be at 29.97 need rendering and then when I set-up a 24 frame timeline, and drop those same clips in they do not need any rendering at all?

I don't think your settings are correct for the sequences. I think you've gotten yourself totally confused. IF you shot 24p there is no way to get it to 24fps unless you take it to Cinema Tools for cadence removal. NONE other than just dropping it in the 24fps timeline and rendering it into a nice mess.

That you could tells me two things... 1 - your timeline sequences aren't set up the way you think they are. Apple-Zero the sequence in the browser to see what they actually are. And 2- your captured material isn't what you actually captured. I mean, if you shot 24p why would you capture at 24fps?

FACTS:

IF you want a film look to your 30frame per second film then shot in 24p and STAY in 30 fps timelines. Will look just like all other things on TV that are shot on film. FILMS themselves go thru this telecine process to be seen on TV too.

IF you want to go to film for shoot for the web or even DVD OR even care to edit in 24fps just like film and then add a telecine cadence so it all has a nice steady cadence THEN shoot 24pA and remove the cadence on capture using the presets FOR THAT TASK in FCP.

My guess for you right now is to throw away everything... go back and capture with the preset DV/NTSC 48k 29.97.

Then, after capturing -- take those clips to Cinema Tools and remove the 3.2 cadence. (SEARCH here... I've explained that millions of times.) THEN it will indeed be 23.98 footage and you can edit away in 24 fps.

Ok?

Good luck,

CaptM

 

[DP StrangeLove]

I think you may have mis-understood.

Everything imports and plays fine in when I set up my 24p sequence. Where I need to do the rendering is when I set-up a 29.97 timeline sequence, not in the 24p timeline. I understand that 30 frames go to tape.

So why is that my footage plays fine in a 24p timeline?


Perhaps you can give specific sequence settings that you are referring to. Are you saying that I should set all of my settings to 29.97

and to only use a regular DV NTSC sequence at 29.97 for 24p footage?

But how about what is stated here?

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=60855&page=4&highlight=pulldown+explain\

The only time you should ever edit 24p footage on a 29.97 timeline is if you have 29.97 footage you want to mix in -- and keep looking like it's 29.97.

If all you have is 24p footage, you should never NOT edit in 24p.

 

[DP StrangeLove]

I don't think your settings are correct for the sequences. I think you've gotten yourself totally confused. IF you shot 24p there is no way to get it to 24fps unless you take it to Cinema Tools for cadence removal. NONE other than just dropping it in the 24fps timeline and rendering it into a nice mess.

Then, after capturing -- take those clips to Cinema Tools and remove the 3.2 cadence. (SEARCH here... I've explained that millions of times.) THEN it will indeed be 23.98 footage and you can edit away in 24 fps.

Ok?

Good luck,

CaptM

ok, maybe I'll be more clear.

I think I am grasping this, but my only question is why am I able to edit 24p (standard) footage that I captured in a 24p timeline perfectly without any rendering, without using cinema tools to remove the 2:3 pulldown as you mentioned?

So, the 24p clips that I captured in FCP, play at 30i in the browser before I bring them into the 24p sequence timleine. This, as I understand it, is because it has the 2:3 pulldown cadence applied that is not yet removed.

When I bring them into the 24p sequence timeline, they drop in fine, as I mentioned before, need no rendering.

Is this in effect removing the pulldown?


Since I will be outputting to dvd and web, I would rather stay in 24p the whole way.

 

[NoahK]

If your clips are not requiring rendering in a 24p timeline they are 24p. Perhaps you captured with remove advanced pulldown checked. You can determine by looking at the item properties in the bin. The frame rate will either be 29.97 or 23.98.

Noah