djembeplay said:
oh hell i didnt write it.... I thought about it 1000 times, but someone else articualted it very well. it was from a Illustration Forum.
ugh- looking for a little advice
- Thread starter djembeplay
- Start date
oh hell i didnt write it.... I thought about it 1000 times, but someone else articualted it very well. it was from a Illustration Forum.
Post from Craigslist
Post from Craigslist
Yeah, I also saw that great post on a news camera forum. Here's a bit of background on that post.
------------------
January 23rd, 2007
I’m a self-employed graphic designer. In the old days, when I was greener than a leprechaun’s testicles, nothing would make me contemplate suicide more seriously than a potential client who was, in fact, no more than a deluded jackass. The hook was usually, “If you do this job cheap, I’ve loads more work for you!” and I bought that line more times than anyone with an ounce of sense ought to have.
This morning, the following was posted on CraigsList. It’s been doing the rounds on design boards and blogs in a big community whoop because it captures and excoriates so perfectly the ignorance and arrogance inflicted on designers by design morons.
The post was quickly flagged and removed (i.e. censored) by CraigsList users, but not before it became the gift that keeps on giving. Who was that masked crusader? Designers everywhere owe him a hot coffee and a big hug.
---------------------------
Post from CraigsList
Every day, there are more and more Craigs List posts seeking “artists” for everything....................................
Post from Craigslist
TimurCivan said:
Yeah, I also saw that great post on a news camera forum. Here's a bit of background on that post.
------------------
January 23rd, 2007
I’m a self-employed graphic designer. In the old days, when I was greener than a leprechaun’s testicles, nothing would make me contemplate suicide more seriously than a potential client who was, in fact, no more than a deluded jackass. The hook was usually, “If you do this job cheap, I’ve loads more work for you!” and I bought that line more times than anyone with an ounce of sense ought to have.
This morning, the following was posted on CraigsList. It’s been doing the rounds on design boards and blogs in a big community whoop because it captures and excoriates so perfectly the ignorance and arrogance inflicted on designers by design morons.
The post was quickly flagged and removed (i.e. censored) by CraigsList users, but not before it became the gift that keeps on giving. Who was that masked crusader? Designers everywhere owe him a hot coffee and a big hug.
---------------------------
Post from CraigsList
Every day, there are more and more Craigs List posts seeking “artists” for everything....................................
heres a coffe for the illustrator dude..... 
It's a tough balance. I'll work for free for friends and on projects that I think are worthwhile. But seriously, there's more "no pay" gigs than anything else out there and it gets ridiculously frustrating.
The other day I saw "We need an illustrator to do a series of comic-book style drawings for a major label band working on a music video for MTV. There's no pay, but your work will be used in this music video and it will be great for your demo reel!"
To people like this, my answer is always: Screw you. If this is a "major label band" doing a video for MTV, they have thousands to millions of dollars that they throw at videos like this, and some meager amount could trickle down to the bottom to pay a person to do good work for you.
Oftentimes I'll work for a "token" sum if the project is good - copy/credit/meal and 45 bucks. Something stupid. Why? Because they're still investing in the community financially, which is what it really takes to create a community and sustain it. Los Angeles would cave in on itself if nobody was willing to pay a qualified creative person to do creative work. You have to support a creative community financially if you expect this community to exist, elsewise you have a series of people with crappy dayjobs who do this as a "hobby," and you're not gonna see amazing work come out of a half-time hobby (it could, but it's very unlikely).
If I ask someone to come out and help me, even if it's for little more than holding cables, I pay them. It comes out of what I make (which is usually meager in itself) but I pay them. It makes everything professional and legit and you're helping someone else out who's just trying to get by.
The other day I saw "We need an illustrator to do a series of comic-book style drawings for a major label band working on a music video for MTV. There's no pay, but your work will be used in this music video and it will be great for your demo reel!"
To people like this, my answer is always: Screw you. If this is a "major label band" doing a video for MTV, they have thousands to millions of dollars that they throw at videos like this, and some meager amount could trickle down to the bottom to pay a person to do good work for you.
Oftentimes I'll work for a "token" sum if the project is good - copy/credit/meal and 45 bucks. Something stupid. Why? Because they're still investing in the community financially, which is what it really takes to create a community and sustain it. Los Angeles would cave in on itself if nobody was willing to pay a qualified creative person to do creative work. You have to support a creative community financially if you expect this community to exist, elsewise you have a series of people with crappy dayjobs who do this as a "hobby," and you're not gonna see amazing work come out of a half-time hobby (it could, but it's very unlikely).
If I ask someone to come out and help me, even if it's for little more than holding cables, I pay them. It comes out of what I make (which is usually meager in itself) but I pay them. It makes everything professional and legit and you're helping someone else out who's just trying to get by.
djembeplay
Well-known member
Ya... that seems like a good working policy mrwrong... the result of broad thinking... being able to come outside of your self to observe your effect on the flow of things around you... and all that jazz
Seriously though--- its amazing that it is the way it is financially... I mean, if you look at the discussions overall on this forum, they are for the most part extremely intelligent and witty. But maybe it has something to do with... a large number of artists (myself included) live for the thrill of creation and exploration of the world, and sort of put the financial end of things as a secondary priority for 'life goals'. Now, if you mix this chemical with the trend of America to strive for fat paychecks to fund death mortgages on new McMansions and plastered faces... artists will probably not have interest enough to put the energy into such a seemingly fruitless competition... even though they have something great to offer humanity. Those who strive for power... will most likely get it. This path might include a lot of dishonesty and sociopathic tendencies... So in effect you see people not interested in a more egalitarian approach to life, but rather numerous 'craigslist' ads taking advantage of those who are more trusting / don't care to learn the devious ways of those seeking self-fulfillment through power / frivolous wealth accumulation.
Its like... this negative feedback cycle in a sense. You have this abstract figure called corporations (ya, I know we are all sick of hearing the anti-corporation argument, but bear with me) who for the most part are devious and gouging in the face of money. Don't get me wrong, some of them make great contributions with their power, yet due to the tendencies of most, one is inclined to question whether even these contributions are genuine or for the sake of their own face value (or even to cover something they don't want seen). Now, these domineering characters, these machines made my humans, in turn spin a consciousness that effects many humans through media and whatever else. Then these humans continue to affect each other... then in turn create more abstract entities called corporations that reflect the consciousness that they know and live by... that which was largely spun by other corporations in the first place...
Then many of us as artists seem to be on the outer fringes of all of this... watching... slightly removed, but still feeling the heat of the frenzy... And who knows, maybe its being on that fringe that keeps us alive... like sitting by a warm campfire on a cold, black night...
You know what though... I might not even be making sense at this point. Or, this may all be redundant ideas for you guys that I, at the young age of 22, do not realize them to be so.
I don't really know... anything... at all... anymore... actually.
Seriously though--- its amazing that it is the way it is financially... I mean, if you look at the discussions overall on this forum, they are for the most part extremely intelligent and witty. But maybe it has something to do with... a large number of artists (myself included) live for the thrill of creation and exploration of the world, and sort of put the financial end of things as a secondary priority for 'life goals'. Now, if you mix this chemical with the trend of America to strive for fat paychecks to fund death mortgages on new McMansions and plastered faces... artists will probably not have interest enough to put the energy into such a seemingly fruitless competition... even though they have something great to offer humanity. Those who strive for power... will most likely get it. This path might include a lot of dishonesty and sociopathic tendencies... So in effect you see people not interested in a more egalitarian approach to life, but rather numerous 'craigslist' ads taking advantage of those who are more trusting / don't care to learn the devious ways of those seeking self-fulfillment through power / frivolous wealth accumulation.
Its like... this negative feedback cycle in a sense. You have this abstract figure called corporations (ya, I know we are all sick of hearing the anti-corporation argument, but bear with me) who for the most part are devious and gouging in the face of money. Don't get me wrong, some of them make great contributions with their power, yet due to the tendencies of most, one is inclined to question whether even these contributions are genuine or for the sake of their own face value (or even to cover something they don't want seen). Now, these domineering characters, these machines made my humans, in turn spin a consciousness that effects many humans through media and whatever else. Then these humans continue to affect each other... then in turn create more abstract entities called corporations that reflect the consciousness that they know and live by... that which was largely spun by other corporations in the first place...
Then many of us as artists seem to be on the outer fringes of all of this... watching... slightly removed, but still feeling the heat of the frenzy... And who knows, maybe its being on that fringe that keeps us alive... like sitting by a warm campfire on a cold, black night...
You know what though... I might not even be making sense at this point. Or, this may all be redundant ideas for you guys that I, at the young age of 22, do not realize them to be so.
I don't really know... anything... at all... anymore... actually.
Luis Caffesse
Admin
This is reminding me of something a friend of mine once told me (I'm paraphrasing) -
I work on a project for two reasons - for the script, or for the money.
If I'm doing it for the script, then the script better be good.
If I'm doing it for the money, then the money better be good.
Anything else is a waste of time.
I think mrWrong had some good points in his post above - I've followed somewhat of the same philosophy and it's served me well. I've worked for free in the past - and on projects I'm doing myself I haven't been above asking friends to help out for free. What goes around comes around when you're working with your friends. But if I'm making money on a job- no matter how little - no one works for free on set.
I realize now that this thread and completely strayed from the original post.
I work on a project for two reasons - for the script, or for the money.
If I'm doing it for the script, then the script better be good.
If I'm doing it for the money, then the money better be good.
Anything else is a waste of time.
I think mrWrong had some good points in his post above - I've followed somewhat of the same philosophy and it's served me well. I've worked for free in the past - and on projects I'm doing myself I haven't been above asking friends to help out for free. What goes around comes around when you're working with your friends. But if I'm making money on a job- no matter how little - no one works for free on set.
I realize now that this thread and completely strayed from the original post.
djembeplay said:
i just wanna be able to buy food, and pay off my HVx.
Brandon Rice
Distributed Producer
Luis Caffesse said:
Wow, words to live by :thumbsup:
djembeplay
Well-known member
I just want to be able to buy food, and pay off my dvx.
...and pay bills.
...and pay bills.
Jon Starr
Veteran
As a student though we help everyone with each of our student projects, so it's a bit different in that sense IMO. We're all poor (especially cause of school) and helping each other for experience, since we don't know how to do anything yet.
But once we get out, unless it's a special circumstance, there's no reason to not pay people or to be paid.
But once we get out, unless it's a special circumstance, there's no reason to not pay people or to be paid.
hoofandmouf
Well-known member
if you work for free, you are doing nothing more than allowing yourself to be pimped, literally....
success depends on two things.
How well your DP/Director chops are (the minor factor)
and...
How well you can network and sell yourself/your ideas/instill confidence in your abilities/up talk yourself and skills without sounding like a clown (the major factor)
basically its a sh*tload of hardwork and nothing comes easy my friend....
good luck. :beer:
success depends on two things.
How well your DP/Director chops are (the minor factor)
and...
How well you can network and sell yourself/your ideas/instill confidence in your abilities/up talk yourself and skills without sounding like a clown (the major factor)
basically its a sh*tload of hardwork and nothing comes easy my friend....
good luck. :beer:
First off, you need to decide what it is you want to do--exactly. Your career plan seems completely unfocused. How can you reach your goals if you don't even know what they are? Wedding shooter? Editor? Video artist? Independent Filmmaker? Underwater photographer? Maybe you should spend some time figuring out where to concentrate your interests and then do extensive research on that type of career. Underwater photographer? You better find out how many there are and how much they make and where their outlets are. Talk to six of them and pick their brains and find out how they started and what skills and equipment they need. Think about interning for one to learn the business and make contacts.
Your reel and resume need to show the *specific* skills that are applicable to the job you're applying for. A reel of experimental films and a $25,000 check will get you into an MFA program. When I've been on the hiring end, I've found it takes all of 20-30 seconds of watching a reel to assess a production company's abilities. So if you pick a specialty--watch the reels of 10 top pros and figure out what yours needs to look like. In short, do your homework.
Your reel and resume need to show the *specific* skills that are applicable to the job you're applying for. A reel of experimental films and a $25,000 check will get you into an MFA program. When I've been on the hiring end, I've found it takes all of 20-30 seconds of watching a reel to assess a production company's abilities. So if you pick a specialty--watch the reels of 10 top pros and figure out what yours needs to look like. In short, do your homework.
Luis Caffesse
Admin
Fantastic advice Barry.
One of those posts that made me stop and say, oh yeah, why didn't I say that?
Absolutely - pick your focus.
I tried for a while to do the 'jack of all trades' thing - and didn't start working consistently until I really made an effort to get work as an editor. Given time I got steady work, and since then I'm been able to expand my role back into a 'jack of all trades' type. But the bread and butter of my business is still editing.
Then again, your mileage may vary.
One of those posts that made me stop and say, oh yeah, why didn't I say that?
Absolutely - pick your focus.
I tried for a while to do the 'jack of all trades' thing - and didn't start working consistently until I really made an effort to get work as an editor. Given time I got steady work, and since then I'm been able to expand my role back into a 'jack of all trades' type. But the bread and butter of my business is still editing.
Then again, your mileage may vary.
djembeplay
Well-known member
Hey Barry,
Ya thats great advice. You know what I was thinking was... 'OK, wedding videos arent what im into actually doing at all, but I think for now it will be the easiest way to make money with my new studio. Then I will have an income and be able to work on the stuff I really want to do (which ultimately is film shorts and documentaries).'
Pish, I am finding much more resistance than I had expected with what I thought would be the most 'plentiful' market, one that would be good to start out in. I say start out in the sense of making money, but speaking in terms of production, I have been making experimental shorts just for personal enjoyment and school for over 7 years.
Anyways, Im saying in a round-about way that I think your right. I just need to go for the heart and do what I want to do ultimately. The wedding thing seems like a huge side-track at this point. I mean, im poor though, which means I guess I will be working another job until I can get things rolling, but you do what you have to do.
But man, I cant wait until I can support myself doing this, because I dread min-wage jobs with a passion.
Thanks again...
Ya thats great advice. You know what I was thinking was... 'OK, wedding videos arent what im into actually doing at all, but I think for now it will be the easiest way to make money with my new studio. Then I will have an income and be able to work on the stuff I really want to do (which ultimately is film shorts and documentaries).'
Pish, I am finding much more resistance than I had expected with what I thought would be the most 'plentiful' market, one that would be good to start out in. I say start out in the sense of making money, but speaking in terms of production, I have been making experimental shorts just for personal enjoyment and school for over 7 years.
Anyways, Im saying in a round-about way that I think your right. I just need to go for the heart and do what I want to do ultimately. The wedding thing seems like a huge side-track at this point. I mean, im poor though, which means I guess I will be working another job until I can get things rolling, but you do what you have to do.
But man, I cant wait until I can support myself doing this, because I dread min-wage jobs with a passion.
Thanks again...