uggggh! interlace artifacts with hvx200 on vegas 9 dv codec 30p

[drinkytheclown]

i'm a complete noob with hvx200 and vegas9.0 and having trouble finding 30p info.

i hate to ask something that seems so simple anywhere you look, but i've not been able to find info on interlace problems in vegas with 30p from the hvx200 in dv codec. everything i've seen seems to either revolve around deinterlacing 60i 480 and 24p dvd content.

it generally seems to only happen when i've got time stretching applied to clips. roughly 1/2 of them will interlace bad at different stages of post. sometimes it shows up in vegas, sometimes i can render to dv for final project and the dv looks perfect, but when compressing with divx it gets interlaced again. it would seem to me it doesn't need anything going in 30p through the 60i firewire but just to shift time on the lower frame.

as well, ideally i'd like to save the projects in regular mixdowns to dv codec, as well as the final mix. divx sure seems a lot faster, but i can't get it to deinterlace with their converter app correctly. it gets worse and worse during editing and generally i find vegas changing my raw clips to progressive. i change them back at the clip and it gets worse. the only way i've found to correct it is to change project settings from dv widescreen setting to a progressive format and change par to 1.0 and size to 876X480, but then i loose fast dv renders. is it possible stretching short dv clips out is shifting the timecode to flip fields?


http://www.vimeo.com/7537321

this above is saving it at 720p sony avc codec, but the project settings were 876x480 p.

my workflow as i understand it would be capture the clips, clips will be bff into project with ntsc dv widescreen. i run intermediate checks on edits by rendering to same ntsc dv setting and bff selected open dml file 2.0 selected stretch video to fill is not selected quality is best and preview window simulate device aspect ratio is selected. if i'm seeing the interlace problems inside vegas with everything set dv bff, does that mean anything? i've been shooting in 30p under the presumption it might prevent issues like this. also, should i have to deinterlace from the computer screen settings?

should i give up 30p and start filming 24pa? even with 30p is it true p in vegas or just rebuilding the fields? is the 24pa truly progressive frames in the editor if its pulled down on import? they also say 60i is 2.5 times slower than 24p in rendering. we're just using it for bts and playing around. i'm a complete noob and trying to get my feet wet and perhaps understand how this stuff works. any ideas would be welcome. thanks. almost forgot, my divx deinterlace is set to blend. and i found a setting for hardware deinterlacing in my laptops nvidia card settings and deselected it. i don't have p2 or firestore, so no option there.

 

[Cranky]

Set your project to "DV widescreen" template, edit project properties and set video as "progressive scan", not bff or tff. You may also want to set deinterlacing to None. When you use time stretching, Vegas may try using fields instead of frames to avoid stuttering, you can try setting "never interpolate" or whatever it is in clip properties. Time stretching native 30p footage will not look good anyway, it would be better if you shot it in 60i mode and then slowed it down.

Divx should not deinterlace anything, set it up to use progressive source.

Are you converting 30p to 30p?

 

[David Jimerson]

i've been shooting in 30p under the presumption it might prevent issues like this.

Are you sure? A lot of the footage in that video doesn't look like 30p; it looks like 60i.

also, should i have to deinterlace from the computer screen settings?

No.

should i give up 30p and start filming 24pa?

If you want the look of 24p, yes. If you don't, then no. It's a stylistic choice.

I will say, though, that if you intend to do more slo-mo, you may be even unhappier if you shoot all 24p.

The way to do slo-mo effectively is shoot a higher frame rate and then slow it down to your project frame rate. Most of your problems here probably do stem from using a velocity envelope or whatever time changing technique you used, especially if you used an irregular playback speed (like 63% or something). Best results will come when you can match a frame for a frame, evenly, so if you slow down 30p on a 30p timeline, your best bet will be 50% -- that way, it simply shows each frame twice and it won't have to interpolate anything.

Best, of course, is to shoot the higher frame rate -- 60i -- and then slow it down to line up each field with a frame, which in this case will also be 50%. But it will be better slo-mo than slowing 30p, because each field will be made into a 30p frame, and instead of showing the same frame twice and stopping motion each time, each new frame will be a different moment in time and motion will continue, giving you smoother slo-mo.

Which is why slowing 24p footage is the worst -- it will be the choppiest slo-mo of all. Best to do there is shoot 60i and slow to 40% on a 24p timeline, or shoot 30p and slow to 80% on a 24p timeline.

So, bottom line, figure out where you're going to do your slo-mo ahead of time and shoot accordingly.

even with 30p is it true p in vegas or just rebuilding the fields?

It's actually 30p.

is the 24pa truly progressive frames in the editor

Yes, though pulldown is not removed at capture; only when the footage is placed on a 24p timeline.

they also say 60i is 2.5 times slower than 24p in rendering.

Not sure exactly what that means.

almost forgot, my divx deinterlace is set to blend.

You don't want that; you want "interpolate." You only want "blend" if you have almost no motion.

and i found a setting for hardware deinterlacing in my laptops nvidia card settings and deselected it.

That shouldn't affect Vegas at all.

 

[drinkytheclown]

thank you thank you thank you guys. still a lot of questions, but i'm headed in the right direction now. i was using bff and deinterlace everywhere because its the nstc defaults for dv.

if i save as dv to archive, do i need to do something to store it as bff? it would have to get mastered like this for dv print, wouldn't it?

what setting would i use to keep from re compressing my output that is unedited on a dv render? same as the project?

i've searched a thousand pages that all say the same thing, make sure everything is bff for ntsc dv, but perhaps they were all assuming 60i footage. from time to time i was even getting a 1.5 deviation in frames that would go like 3 forward and 2 back. i've jacked with this for months, and can't find anything in the literature about 30 p.

i can't personally look at the footage and tell 60i from 30p from 24p by looking at it, so i'm just looking for an easy and fast solution, and that looks like it might be 3223 in the editor, 24pa in the cam and shoot 60 i for slowmo and just mix it up in the timeline. and i did notice .5 or .25 solved tons of issues in slowmo, so i always use .5 at this point.

i did find this from the help file that i've never seen before

"24p video can be rendered approx 2.5 times faster than 60i"

the video probably did look like some was 60i as i think my settings were interlacing it and shifting feilds or something.

just to verify, placing the project properties on no deinterlace and no field order (progressive) - is this just from my trouble i'm having, or the setting for 30p every time?

i think both of you pretty much hit it on the head. my settings were making the whole thing look terrible, then on slomo it actually was doing some crazy random things with fields getting mixed around going frame by frame. all these automatic settings furthur down the pipeline, both on the divx converter and divx player were doing what it could to put bad footage back together with the deinterlace filters, it looks like, which was making the file play different on different players so there was no promise what its they were seeing when they played the original file.

thank you again, if you have any ideas on this i'd love to hear. my crew edits with fcp and i'm not sure they've ever had to touch interlace settings before when they shot on it.

and thank you for looking at the vid. i haven't even watched a music video in probably 10 years, let alone tried to shoot and edit one. am i way out of touch editing this thing? get rid of 70% of the edits and dissolves? its just for our internal use, but i'd love to hear any thoughts or ideas.

my first movie released the official poster today! and showed up on imdb. we sure put a lot of work into it. shot on 2 reds at 4k edited in fcp. we started with 5 guys and 1 hvx. ended with over 50 and 2 reds/2 hvx. who'da guessed? i guess i can try and put a link up with the poster in another room for film releases?

sorry again if it looks like i'm just not researching this, but everything i've found has one fix for correcting this, just select bff silly! its dv! i've had more aggravation with this interlacing than putting our last film together. i have other minor problems when i try and mix my hd panasonic consumer cam avchd footage with it, but fixing this will probably let me figure out that. it should be tff, i think. but i can never tell what its recording in anyway. one more reason i've got no business playing with this stuff.

and i saw slowing 60i works best with 1/60 shutter speed?

kent

http://www.imdb.com/rg/VIDEO_PLAY/LINK//video/wab/vi3328115225/

our movie trailer's first broadcast release!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1520877/fullcredits

http://www.movieset.com/forwhomhetolls

movieset's gotta be the coolest site on the planet for someone like us. (outside of dvxuser)

 

[Cranky]

> i can't personally look at the footage and tell 60i from 30p from 24p by looking at it

In Vegas turn preview window to Preview(Full). Do not use Good or Best methods, because they try to deinterlace, at least the Best one. Choose a scene with movement and take a look. If you do not see combing, it is 30p. If you see combing in one frame out of three, it is 24p. if you see combing in three consecutive frames, it is 60i.

 

[David Jimerson]

thank you thank you thank you guys. still a lot of questions, but i'm headed in the right direction now. i was using bff and deinterlace everywhere because its the nstc defaults for dv.

Never, ever use any kind of deinterlace filter on any progressive footage, whether it's 24p or 30p. ESPECIALLY not 24p. Just take that out of the workflow.

if i save as dv to archive, do i need to do something to store it as bff? it would have to get mastered like this for dv print, wouldn't it?

No, just render as NTSC DV -- widescreen if appropriate. Vegas will do everything needing to be done.

If it's 24p footage, and you're archiving for later editing, then choose to insert 2-3-3-2 pulldown.

what setting would i use to keep from re compressing my output that is unedited on a dv render? same as the project?

If you are rendering to the same format as the footage (not the project), and you have no effects added or transitions, then it will not recompress. In any other situation -- rendering to a different format or frame rate, or if you have any FX or transitions -- in other words, if you've changed the footage in any way -- it will always recompress; there's no way around it.

i've searched a thousand pages that all say the same thing, make sure everything is bff for ntsc dv, but perhaps they were all assuming 60i footage. from time to time i was even getting a 1.5 deviation in frames that would go like 3 forward and 2 back. i've jacked with this for months, and can't find anything in the literature about 30 p.

Like I said, don't worry about that. It'll be taken care of automatically when you render to DV.

i can't personally look at the footage and tell 60i from 30p from 24p by looking at it

With some experience, you can tell by the motion characteristics. You can also tell in the HVX LCD screen if you play the tape; it should tell you what the footage is.

so i'm just looking for an easy and fast solution, and that looks like it might be 3223 in the editor, 24pa in the cam and shoot 60 i for slowmo and just mix it up in the timeline.

This is correct, except there's no "3-2-2-3 in the editor." You just choose a 24p NTSC timeline. Check out my video sticky in the top of the section for 24p and Vegas. As you're using the HVX in DV tape mode, it applies entirely.

and i did notice .5 or .25 solved tons of issues in slowmo, so i always use .5 at this point.

It's because of what I said -- the frames line up with the frames on the timeline, so there's no need to interpolate or blend frames. Remember, with 60i on a 24p timeline, you want .4, not .5, and with 30p on a 24p timeline, you want .8. And right-click on the clips you're slowing, choose Properties, and disable resample.

i did find this from the help file that i've never seen before

"24p video can be rendered approx 2.5 times faster than 60i"

Not to NTSC DV, though, because you'll be rendering to a 60i format.

the video probably did look like some was 60i as i think my settings were interlacing it and shifting feilds or something.

No, it's just that the motion cadence -- the fluidity of it -- looked more like 60i than 30p.

just to verify, placing the project properties on no deinterlace and no field order (progressive) - is this just from my trouble i'm having, or the setting for 30p every time?

It's ideal for 30p footage. Save it as a preset.

i think both of you pretty much hit it on the head. my settings were making the whole thing look terrible, then on slomo it actually was doing some crazy random things with fields getting mixed around going frame by frame. all these automatic settings furthur down the pipeline, both on the divx converter and divx player were doing what it could to put bad footage back together with the deinterlace filters, it looks like, which was making the file play different on different players so there was no promise what its they were seeing when they played the original file.

As I said above, do not use any deinterlacing -- not in Vegas, not in DivX.

thank you again, if you have any ideas on this i'd love to hear. my crew edits with fcp and i'm not sure they've ever had to touch interlace settings before when they shot on it.

FCP is more of a PITA at this stuff than Vegas, by far, so count yourself lucky.

and thank you for looking at the vid. i haven't even watched a music video in probably 10 years, let alone tried to shoot and edit one. am i way out of touch editing this thing? get rid of 70% of the edits and dissolves? its just for our internal use, but i'd love to hear any thoughts or ideas.

Hard to say. Depends on what you want it to be. I'd first nail down some kind of theme to follow -- the over-arching "feel" or emotion you want to convey from the video.

and i saw slowing 60i works best with 1/60 shutter speed?

1/120 if you're using it for slo-mo with 24p or 30p.

 

[drinkytheclown]

thank you both so much. i've put this off for months worried it was going to be like getting teeth pulled when i can't even replicate the problem completly, but this makes perfect sense and my shots look 5 times better already. i wouldn't film anything critical with my experience anyway, but its embarrassing with such a camera hiccups like this would come up for so long. if we reshoot for real on this it'll be on reds with a crew and management in nashville or dallas. i can die now man.